"We are created by being destroyed." -F.W.
Murat: To be honest with you, I've had enough of the Turkish military and the continued reference to it as some sort of a savior. Maybe democratic solutions would have to be given chances to blossom without this threat of the mighty military to the rescue every time we need to make a point about all of these external and internal forces all conspiring to bring Turkey to an end. The military hasn't been tested and people don't care to get involved with us. And that is the real reason for those 'forces' to stay confined, and not because they're afraid of our military. In my opinion, we need to get over it and keep up with the times and stop all the unnecessary paranoia.
Savior from WHAT? Islamists? militant Kurds? Terrorists? Armenians? Greek Cypriots? PKK supporting Syrians and Greeks? I get your point, but sheer dismissal of the Turkish military as some kind of impotent paper tiger? I disagree.
Metin,Turkey is planted right in the middle of a really bad neighborhood. I have to agree with Murat on this one.Imagine, for a momemt, if we didn't have the military might that we have. We would be powerless, and there are plenty of unfriendly neighbors around us who would love to take us down. I firmly believe that it is this fear of the Turkish armed forces that keeps are neigbors from doing to us what they only dream of doing. The fall of the Ottoman Empire is still very fresh in our memories. We aren't in the middle of Europe, after all.You could call it paranoia if you want, but it is warranted, in my veiw.
First off, thanks again for the support murat. Second, I'd have to agree with murat on the military for two reasons that are not immediately apparent to a lot of people. First, the fact that the military is just there is what is keeping this current government from overstepping its bounds and undoing the secular nature of the government. Many have praised the AKP's moderation, but its only moderated itself for fear of the military. Second, there are two facets of PKK terrorism. The first one is suicide bombings and such, which we all see. The second is outright warfare in the South East, and we need a strong military to combat PKK raids and such.
Sorry, but I have to go back to Turkey's neighbors. Yes, we need the Turkish armed forces to combat the PKK. But let us not forget that they (the PKK) have been financed and armed by Greece, Syria and, of course, Armenia for many years. These countries are not in the least bit interested in seeing a strong and powerful Turkey. One of the main reasons I don't want Turkey in the E.U. is because I feel that the Turkish military won't be able to flex its muscles as easily when they need to.
Soldier Killed by PKK Landmine in Diyarbakir By Cihan News Agency Saturday, December 09, 2006 zaman.com One Turkish soldier was killed and eight others were injured when a landmine laid by the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) went off on Friday. A military vehicle hit a roadside landmine planted on a rural road of near the town of Lice in southeastern Turkey. After the funeral, which was attended by Agriculture Minister Mehmet Mehdi Eker and Diyarbakir Governor Efkan Ala attended, the soldiers's body was sent to his hometown Ankara. A wide-scale operation has been launched by the security forces in the region to track down those responsible. On Thursday, a Turkish military helicopter was shot down while trying to land in eastern Turkish city of Bingol, leaving one soldier dead and five others injured. The PKK later claimed the responsibility of the blast, as the Turkish chief of staff also confirmed that the blast was caused by a PKK-planted landmine. With these latest two casualties, the number of Turkish security force personnel killed in PKK attacks since the end of the unilateral ceasefire in June 2004 has risen to 233. As of Oct. 1, the PKK declared a unilateral "cease-fire", which was immediately rejected by Turkish government and army. Blacklisted by the United States, the European Union, Canada, Britain and Australia, the outlawed PKK is blamed for the death of over 35,000 people in Turkey between 1984 and 1999. More than 4,000 were soldiers, and around 2,000 were police.
as long as Turkey has a 'miitary,' not in the sense of what a military should be for, (but) as a 'protector' of Turks and Turkish-ness everywhere, the paranoia subsists. I, as an American first, and as a citizen of the world arguing about what's right is right, do not share in the view of most Turks or even Amerikan Turks still under this spell. Join the process or be singed out. And the militaristic view will keep insisting on Turks dont need any friends attitude. As long as this is the case and we dont open our minds to what everyone else can see as obvious, we'll still be sitting ducks. It's time to look in from the outside and maybe we can address the global problems that face all of the citizens of the world and not just the ones that Turks care for and want everyone else to think the same.It's time to stop being a welfare state and accuse others of plotting against us. It's time to participate in the process without a 'military' option to kick us in the butt every so many years.The obvious result is that what I hope would happen I predict will happen except it takes longer to register in the Turkish mindset. And when they finally warm up to it and start reforming all too slowly nevertheless, then they start re-introducing these ideas as their own. Hence the only way to get anything done in Turkey. We know the best and We are the best is the motto. Unless a Pope, or an American Prez or any leader bows his head to the Turks as acknowledging their 'greatness' we dont expect anything good of them. In fact, if they do act in good faith, we are quick to ask what the catch is. How sad??? It's time for Turkey and the Turks to grow up and join the 'global' process!
Gamze: "Imagine, for a momemt, if we didn't have the military might that we have. We would be powerless, and there are plenty of unfriendly neighbors around us who would love to take us down."Who is stopping them now? Do you really believe if all our neighbors wanted to take us down, the only reason for them 'holding still' is because of our military.Or are they waiting for us to grow up and join the global world??
Semih Aydin::First, the fact that the military is just there is what is keeping this current government from overstepping its bounds and undoing the secular nature of the government. Many have praised the AKP's moderation, but its only moderated itself for fear of the military."Nothing, I mean nothing, including the military, even the Turkish military, can stop the good ole saying, 'you are bund to be rules by thse you deserve.'As long as democracy is the candy coated mechanism that Turkey incorporates, the majority will win! And no matter what the military does or says.The days of 'fear' from the police state has long since gone. It wont be soon to change the mindset in Turkey and for the Turks to catch up.INSTEAD OF USING FEAR TO DISMISS TURKISH IDEOLOGY WHORES, WOULDNT IT BE BETTER TO PROACTIVELY INCORPORATE THEM INTO THE MAINSTREAM.Don't we realize by keeping military fears as a hidden or silent mechanism to keep control, we are actually allowing the radicals to get better armed and have a wider audience appeal and demographics.Has anyone asked themselves the above question or should we continue to expect that our military will just take care of the problem??? How naive!!!
Gamze: "the outlawed PKK is blamed for the death of over 35,000 people in Turkey between 1984 and 1999. More than 4,000 were soldiers, and around 2,000 were police."Excuse my ranting and commentitis today for some reason but ...I know a lot of Kurds who believe at least the (35000 less 4000 less 2000) 29000 or so people who have died are actually Kurds (of Turkish citizenry.)How convenient we use Kurd deaths by other Kurds to improve our own political position against the Kurds. Didnt the US say Saddam killed 100,000 of his own people. They were Kurds people! But they were also Iraqi citizens. So the argument 'technically' made sense. Saddam didnt kill any Arabs, he killed Kurds. Now that Iraq is the US of Iraq, do you think the US will care about the Kurds? or think they are some sort of a nuisance?
Metin, You've spun this whole issue around and turned it upside down onto it's head. This post was about "System of a Down", throwing their weight around and using their fame as leverage to make all Turks, past and present, appear to be directly culpable for. My remark about the military was just my "gratuitous nationalism" thrown in for good measure. No need to break it down to the level that you did, which falls just short of saying that the Turkish military is the real enemy.. Hey, maybe you're light years ahead of everyone else, maybe not,.. but the fact remains- in the eyes of the Islamophobic West, our Turkish military is perhaps the single most attractive thing thing about us..
Metin,I am fully aware that most of the casualities are Kurds. However, I don't get the sense that they are not standing alongside their PKK brothers and sisters. When there is an uprising, it's not uncommon for Kurds to send women and children out into the streets to be used as human shields. In other words, it appears that Kurdish people are not condemning the PKK for killing Turkish soldiers and policeman.But getting back to the PKK which has long been backed and supported by Greece, Syria and, of course the Armenia... I hardly think that these countries have financed and armed the PKK out of their love for the Kurds. Surely you would agree that these countries have an axe to grind with Turkey as they don't care to see a strong and powerful Turkey. I can understand the Turkish governments fear of the Kurds attempting to do what our good Armenian friends sought to do in attempting to create their own state on Turksih soil. I am not at all in favor of Turkey's joining the E.U. because the Turkish military should be free to flex its big muscles whenever they have to.Again, we are a part of the messed Middle East, not the "civilized" Europeans. (I actually felt queasy when I wrote that sentence).
Murat: "but the fact remains- in the eyes of the Islamophobic West, our Turkish military is perhaps the single most attractive thing thing about us.."I totally disagree!!! It's the very thing that they keep bringing up at every opportunity they get, regardless of the double standard of knowing that if it wasn't for the military, the radicals might take over Turkey (they won't but who's counting.)As for the 'System of a Down,' I've already commented on Semih's blog and said that we might have to fight fire with fire. Sorry about my on and on and on about the military.Why won't you and I (and Gamze as our lead singer) start a Rock band and call it 'Down With The System!'Gamze: I don't think Turkey should join but for completely different reasons. In fact, if I was the PM, I would have a laundry list of things Europe has to conform to if it begs Turkey to think about joining! So how about my ofer to start an online band. We might ecen call it 'Band-ade' and 'heal' some people.
Metin, you totally disagree with what? the hypocrisy? By your own admission, if Turkey's military were anything smaller and weaker than it presently is, in other words, if secular democracy in Turkey was even remotely threatened by an unfettered trend towards theocracy, then admittance to the EU would be about as likely as pigs flying. The EU speaks from both sides of it's mouth if they take issue with the Turkish military..As for the band idea, I already commented about it at Six Arrows blog. Otherwise, I recommend that one of us start a blog named "Down with the System" as you suggest, and assemble a team of willing Turkish bloggers to populate it with an "answer" to the musical propaganda. Should I set it up and we see what we can make of it? Fight fire with..."tahta"! (Okay that's a joke from the movie "GORA")
Every joke has a grain of truth in it. We would be [figuratively] feuling the fire with anything we do to call attention to the issue at hand...
Murat:"Metin, you totally disagree with what? . . .By your own admission . . . " I am not disagreeing with myself. I am disagreeing with your earlier comment:"but the fact remains- in the eyes of the Islamophobic West, our Turkish military is perhaps the single most attractive thing thing about us.."Have you been reading the 'Western' news and commentaries about how the 'military' intervention has to go!!!???I disagree with your assessment that the West wants us to have a military that 'interferes' with politics. Have you read the EU declarations regarding the opposite. If anything, they want us to reform the military to stay a military, not meddle in politics.I tend to agree with them. Stop using military as the fear for stopping radicals.1. You wont stop them this way anyway, you actually allow them to 'silently' become more problematic2. They actually gather more supporters of 'illeterates' for sympathy demographics 3. We should elevate ourselves and our people b4 any convers. about joining Europe.
Metin,I'm looking forward to our newly created band to start our international tour: Down With the System (a great name, by the way).We should kick-off our tour with a gig in France.What do you think?
No way! France has a case of 'Downs Syndrome' with apologies to the real sufferers. I think we should kick it off at Yerevan, with simultaneous livecasts at Nicosia, Athens, Brussels, OK Paris too, and downtwn Kurdistan. Ooops, I forgot there is no Kurdistan (yet!) Maybe Kirkuk will do for now.Gamze: Do you have a blog?
Letters to the EditorLos Angeles TimesAt Least Haytayan Survived; My Turkish Grandfather Didn'tDear Robin Abcarian, I read your biased article "From a survivor to the screamers" (LA Times, Dec 6, 2006) with sadness and disappointment. I don't know which troubled me more: your arrogant misrepresentation of a controversial piece of history as settled history to unsuspecting readers or the fact that you glorified cultivation of hatred and vengeance via rock music. Either way, you acted like a single-issue, self-centered, ethnic journalist and produced exactly what is expected of you: more anti-Turkish propagandistic rhetoric. The 97-year-old Armenian, Stepan Haytayan, survived the horrors of World War I; but my grandfather didn't. Neither did my grandmother, grand aunt, grand uncle, and in fact, grand anything... Ottoman Christians saw to it that they were killed. All we know about my father, the only survivor of his village, is what was scribbled apparently hastily on a piece of old, crumpled paper and pinned on his tiny baby clothes: "Akif's son Ratip. Born 1911. Kirlikova." My father was a one year old baby and he was shipped to Istanbul along with other Turkish babies for safety. Turkish parents of those children must have thought they could recover their children from the Ottoman State once the threat of Christian violence was over. Well, they never made it... They were so dead, that we don't even know where they are buried. We suspect that they are all killed and buried near the village of Kirlikova where my father was born; hence my last name. To this day, after 90+ years, I have not met a single survivor or eyewitness to come forward to goive me more information on the "vanishing of the entire population of the village of Kirlikova".. . And the Western media couldn't care less... And that's where the problem lays... So please forgive me if I can not take you and your "survivors" seriously when they continue to spread their anti-Turkish venom to this day while I don't even know where my "dead" grandfolks are buried... At least Armenian survivors "survived" and are able to talk to you and other prejudiced reporters like you who continue to see only one side in this tragic human story known as WWI. To them, Turkish suffering could not exist and Turkish dead do not matter, as they are "Turks" and "Muslims". The 523,000 Turkish dead directly attributable to the atrocities committed by the Ottoman-Armenians and Russiand-Armenian nationalists and their Western accomplices or the 2.5 million Turkish war dead during the entire WWI means nothing to these "learned" journalists, politicians, academicians and others pretending to advocate "human rights". And then they scratch their heads in disbelief thinking "Why don't the Turks just accept the (allegations of) genocide?" I am aware that neither you nor the LA Times editors would likely publish a letter like this, which is deemed "against popular belief and conventional wisdom", but if you have the least bit of conscience, and you respect values like journalistic objectivity, fairness, balance, and truth, then I hope that you would. As long as my pain and suffering, along with those of millions of Turks today, caused by Armenians, Greeks, and other Ottoman Christians during WWI are not properly acknowledged placed in their historical context, there can be no reconciliation. Sincerely, Ergun KIRLIKOVALIwww.turkla.com9241 Irvine Center Dr., Irvine CA 92618949-788-1050 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From a survivor to the screamers For System of a Down, a documentary on the Armenian genocide began with their own history.By Robin Abcarian, Times Staff WriterDecember 6, 2006 To understand the new documentary "Screamers," you have to understand, first, about the 97-year-old man who lives in an Armenian old folk's home in Mission Hills. His name is Stepan Haytayan; he is the grandfather of Serj Tankian, the lead singer of System of a Down, one of the world's most critically acclaimed rock bands.Haytayan is a survivor of the first genocide of the 20th century — the extermination by Turks of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians — which was the granddaddy, if you will, of all modern genocides, cited sometimes by historians as direct inspiration for Adolf Hitler and indirectly for Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic, and the murderers of Rwanda and Darfur. This is the inescapable reality that informs the music and activism of System of a Down, a Los Angeles band whose four Armenian American members are all grandchildren of genocide survivors. Haytayan's moving accounts of the destruction visited on his family and Tankian's tender interactions with his frail grandfather lend a hopeful poignancy to the film, helping balance both the images of human annihilation and the band's hard-edged vibe. The film's title has a double meaning: "Screamers" refers both to the band's propulsive musical style and, as used by Harvard professor Samantha Power, who is interviewed in the film, to people who force the world to acknowledge atrocities that it would often rather ignore.System of a Down is well known for its activism — using its performances to educate fans, appearing at annual demonstrations in front of the Turkish consulate in Los Angeles and supporting a congressional resolution to officially designate as genocide the atrocities visited upon Armenians around 1915 in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire. In their concerts, Tankian also demands onstage that the Turkish government acknowledge that what happened was genocide (which it has so far refused to do). The movie comes at a time when these events, nearly a century old, are back in focus on the global stage, as Turkey attempts to gain admission to the European Union. In October, the French National Assembly passed a measure making it a crime to deny that Armenians had suffered a "genocide." Also in October, Turkish novelist Orhan Pamuk, who had been charged with "public denigrating of Turkish identity" for publicly discussing the massacre of Armenians, won the Nobel Prize for literature.It was the band's outspoken stance that inspired a pair of veteran filmmakers — producer Peter McAlevey and director Carla Garapedian — to approach the group about making "Screamers," which opens Friday in Glendale, Woodland Hills, Santa Monica and Irvine. To get to the band, however, the filmmakers had to penetrate the powerful force field that screens rock stars from unwanted intrusions — the layers of managers, publicists and other representatives that make it hard to be heard by them. It was not until McAlevey got the pitch into the hands of Lindsay Chase, assistant to Rick Rubin, the legendary music producer who heads the group's label, American Recordings, that he and Garapedian got the band's attention — mostly, they said, because Chase understood that Tankian would probably want to be involved."If this movie ends up doing anything — changes a couple of peoples' minds, helps inspire a new generation of activists," McAlevey said, "it's all owed to an assistant." The documentary makes the case — using concert footage, interviews, historical photographs and a rocking soundtrack with seven of the band's best-known songs, including their No. 1 hit "B.Y.O.B." — that all genocides of the last 100 years were known about by governments and individuals who could have stopped the carnage but chose not to, usually for reasons of political expedience. One subplot of the movie involves attempts by Tankian and his bandmate, drummer John Dolmayan, to confront House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), who is responsible for keeping the Armenian genocide resolution bottled up in committee. When they do meet him, quite by accident in the Capitol rotunda, his brushoff is a classic. McAlevey and Garapedian had a different direction in mind when they conceived the project. McAlevey ("Radio Flyer," "Naked Movie") initially suggested to Garapedian ("Children of the Secret State," "Iran Undercover") that they might want to consider a documentary about the Armenian genocide using System of a Down. She thought it might be a powerful way to tell the story of how Armenian plaintiffs successfully fought to recover benefits for policies written before 1915 by New York Life Insurance Co. (Garapedian' s uncle was a plaintiff; attorney Mark Geragos was a lead attorney in the lawsuit, which was settled on behalf of the beneficiaries for $20 million in January 2004.) But when Garapedian, a former BBC news anchor who grew up in Los Angeles, met with Tankian in April 2005, the singer had other ideas."My concern was that I wanted to be a part of a modern story of denial, of hypocrisy in today's world," said the 39-year-old Tankian, who is surprisingly soft-spoken, "and she agreed that would be more the focus and the theme of the film." Tankian, who called from his car last week on his way to see his grandfather, was getting ready to leave L.A. for New Zealand, where he is hoping to establish residency in order to buy coastal property and build a recording studio. "I think Carla is very ballsy, quite a direct filmmaker. She gets down to the core of it. She is a truth teller. She is a screamer herself."Garapedian first encountered System of a Down in 2004 at the Greek Theatre, when she was working a table set up by the Armenian Film Foundation. "I saw Serj Tankian walk by," she said. "He has this way of walking — he sort of floats along…. He has this amazing profile and this shock of hair. He waved a little like the queen, and I thought, 'Who is this person?' "She read up on him, listened to the music and started to worry. "I said, 'Oh, my God, what am I going to do? I don't understand this music.' I would turn it down when they were screaming, then I would hear these crazy lyrics and Serj's voice, which has a certain Armenian quality to it, like a church liturgy, and I was very taken in."They met to discuss the film in London in April 2005. "He said, 'We will let you film us on tour if you can get the money together for the film,' " said Garapedian, 45, who won an Emmy for "Behind the Veil," her film on Afghan women. "They had never allowed anyone to film their performances. They want their songs to speak for themselves. They don't really want to be seen only as a political band." Tankian's bandmates had to be persuaded, particularly guitarist Daron Malakian. "I tried to get the band involved," Tankian said. "Everyone has their own concern about how things are rendered, but everyone supported it." As for the disruptions of a film crew, he added, "It was pretty basic. We were doing what we had to do whether there was a camera rolling or not."The film's budget, less than $1 million, was provided by BBC Television and a private benefactor, Raffy Manoukian, a London-based philanthropist. The BBC will air the film in March. The marketing budget, naturally, is minimal. Although McAlevey and Garapedian are fairly certain the Armenian community will come out in support, they are worried about getting the word out to a wider audience. Which is why they plan to rendezvous on Friday at a Kinko's on the Westside. They will copy a bunch of fliers for the movie, then hit Santa Monica's Third Street Promenade, targeting younger people with a simple pitch: "Come see a System of a Down movie!"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------robin.abcarian@ latimes.com
The lead singer of this shitty band knew that in order to draw attention to the imaginary Armenian cause, he would have to tie it in with REAL genocides, past and present, so as to give the non-exitent Armenian "genocide" credence.This a-hole doesn't give a God damn about any genocide other than the one that's in his head. They (the Armenians) know that no one would care to watch a "documentary" called that was soley about a tall Armenian Tale. Because we all KNOW that Darfur, Kosovo, the Holocaust, Rawanda, etc... were/are indeed acts of genocide, UNLIKE THE BULLSHIT ARMENIAN ISSUE WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN TO BE A HISTORICAL TRUTH.Yes, the movie makes me want to "SCREAM", "Don't buy into the Armenian Lies!!"Go see a real movie people!
Metin, to go back in time a few days, pardon the tardiness.. The Turkish military is admired and in favor with Westerners, but this does not refer to the EU suits who are controlling the negotiations. I'm perhaps talking about the "Wild West" when I say Westerners.. Go ask anyone at Redneck's Revenge, what they consider to be the single most attractive thing about the Turkish Republic.. I believe you will find that most of these Islamophobic "Westerners" hope and pray that Islamofascism is perpetually and forcefully kept in check by our armed forces. That was my meaning, less to do with the European perspective, and more to do with Americans.Please pardon any contradiction I may have set forth. I'm not sophisticated enough to notice anyway.
"I'm not sophisticated enough . . ."Murat, you are such a bragger!I don't think Rednecks in the US represent the 'Western' point of view of the US, let alone EU or the world.The LA Times, Washington Post, (liberal media,) and NYT, and Wall Street Journal have all called for the military to stop meddling!Gamze: Check these out:Something to Scream Abouthttp://www.ocweekly.com/film/film/something-to-scream-about/26345/andThe trailer for 'Screamers.' Nice soundtrack!http://www.screamersmovie.com/trailers.aspIs that a (dead) voice from the past (Peter Jennings?)
Who are they referring to when they sing "Liar, Murderer, Sodomizer"? Are they singing about you, the modern Turk? Or are they singing about the perpetrators of the crime? Does it not make a difference? Are you and they the same?SOAD is a rock band, but if you hear their songs and read their lyrics, you'll understand that they are more artistic and poetic than most rock bands. Some words have no meaning, while others are loaded with it. Unless you've analyzed and dissected the song, and heard what the band members say about their view of Turks, then a knee-jerk reaction to the Holy Mountain song says much more about you than it does about the song itself.
Let's pretend for a moment that the lyrics of this song "Holy Mountain' are not a direct and flagrant attack upon the Turkish Republic...I've listened to it and I freely admit that it sounds beautiful. I happen to own an older SOAD cd, and I can look past their racist tendencies and focus upon the quality of their music. 'Aerials' is my favorite SOAD piece.Too bad we can't get Athena to fire back and answer the SOAD lyrics, using English. That would be something. Battle of the bands.
I think you should listen to some of the interviews given by the band members of SOAD. They are often asked about their views on Turkey. I've heard some of the interviews given by Serj Tankian, for example, and he said that he has no anger towards Turks as individuals. He said that he recognizes that SOAD has many devoted Turkish fans. Based on these interviews, and also based on listening to the words, I believe Holy Mountains is directed at the Young Turks first, and the current Turkish government second. It isn't directed at the Turkish person.The other point I want to make about SOAD is that they are probably the worst band when it comes to marketing and promoting themselves. Their records sell platinum, their concerts always sell out within hours, but you hardly ever see them doing anything to promote themselves. They are the antithesis to the media whore. The only thing they do outside of the music that they write and the CDs that they make, is that they promote awareness of the Armenian Genocide. It's the only time you see them out in public promoting something. Obviously, it's not something that benefits them personally or makes them richer in any way. They are unique in that sense. The fact that a contemporary, world famous, Armenian-American band still exerts so much artistic and political energy to this cause 90 years after it happened, should tell young Turks something about this cause. Who would risk their careers, fortune and fame to fight for a fabricated cause? Who would write a song like Holy Mountains 90 years after the event if the event weren't true?I think the song is poetic and few songs I've ever heard are as meaningful and deep. If I thought that the song was a racist rant against Turkish people, I wouldn't get goose bumps every time I hear it.
You, a Armenian Holocaust-denier making outrageous claims to victimhood, when you are such a harbinger of racism and bigotry. Anti-Semitism is real, "anti-Turkism" is a crazy paranoid conspiracy theory believed in only by Holocaust deniers.
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