America's #1 Balance Bike Destination

America's #1 Balance Bike Destination
America's #1 Balance Bike Destination

21 January 2007

Feeding the anti-Turkish Monster: Your enemy is my enemy

I've come to a realization... it's a real forehead slapper.. Nationalist thinking is easily born from exposure to any of the militant blogs of Kurds, Armenians and Greeks. Here's a prime example or Kurds and Armenians kissing up to eachother in solidarity of their shared hatred of Turkey. My point is this.. you can avoid being a G-d forsaken nationalist.. all you have to do is close your eyes and be ignorant to those who hate you and your country.. After all, ignorance is bliss.. You can take the red pill and be loved, or take the blue pill and be hated. Don't let anyone fool you into believing there is some kind of middle ground. The forces which are at work against Turkey, by those whose very existence depends upon Turkey, are the real propagators of the Nationalism which they so hate.
Bottom line: Hatred towards Turks breeds Nationalism.
One other important distinction: Love for one's country isn't a symptom of Nationalism. It's the other way around.

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's kind of ironic that within days of Dink's murder by a *Turkish* nationalist, you're going off on Kurds, Armenians and Greeks. Physician heel thyself.

Gulay said...

Why are all the brave people anyonymous??????? before you ask to heal maybe you should be brave enough to identify yourself coward. IN the mean time and assuming you are an asshole with an anti turk axe to grind FUCK OFF

Litmus said...

"Bottom line: Hatred towards Turks breeds Nationalism."

Ahem. fuck that. I suppose then you should advocate Kurdish independence since the same logic would lead one to state: "Hatred towards Kurds breeds Kurdish separatism," but something tells me you're not going to admit that one. Or the phrase, "hatred towards Americans leads to war-mongering American foreign policy," or the phrase "The forces which are against the US, by those whose very existence depends on the US, are the real propagators of the war-mongering policies which they so hate," thereby exusing the government of any responsibility whatsoever. Something tells me your Democrat leanings are not going to lead you to that conclusion.

gulay,

there is little difference in anonymity in posting 'anonymous' or 'gulay'. If you think maintaining anonymity is so immoral why don't you post with your last name? I'm sure if that person posted with a name that did not possess an "enemies of Turkey" suffix on it you would make the suggestion that the person was posting under a pseudonym. Until you do post regularly with your last name, it would be wise not to talk about cowardice.

Türkiye'de, ne Hiroşima ile Nagazaki'de patlayan atom bombaları gibi bir anda 240 bin kişinin ölümüne neden olan bombalar patladı; ne de Türk kentleri, Londra gibi, Berlin gibi bombardıman uçaklarının saldırısına uğradı...
Ama nedense yönetilen yığınlar; Türkün Türkten başka dostu olmadığına ve tüm dünyanın Türk düşmanı olduğuna inandırılmak istendi.
Neden acaba?
Bireylerin yaşam kalitesi açısından Finlandiya'nın 92 basamak, Yunanistan'ın 65 basamak altında kalmak için mi?"

--Cetin Altan, Milliyet, 21-1-2007

Pes artik.

Murat Altinbasak said...

"Hatred towards Kurds breeds Kurdish separatism"
Of course it possibly could, but please show me hatred against Kurds.. at the very least, in the blogosphere. You are twisting my words and re-presenting them out of context.
"hatred towards Americans leads to war-mongering American foreign policy"
No. False. And again, you are offsides, comparing US to Turkish situation.
"The forces which are against the US, by those whose very existence depends on the US, are the real propagators of the war-mongering policies which they so hate,"
More doubleplusgood word play.. Please re-read my post in it's entirety because you've clearly misunderstood it, or you're intent on complicating it's meaning for others

Sean said...

Murat said: "show me hatred against Kurds". are you kidding me? Until now, I thought you were a realist. You might not agree with my views, but that's ok. Now you are making up arguments... Turks are about to send their troops into Iraq to wipe out the Kurdish population because of fears of what "could" happen if they don't. I am sure you are right, all Turks just LOVE Kurds.

B.S.

Litmus said...

"please show me hatred against Kurds..."

!!!!

gurkan said...

Turkey does not hate Kurds sean, Turks hate the PKK. Get your facts straight. I did my military service last summer, and my commander was a Kurdish-Turk.

Show me an Armenian site, that is not full of vulgar and hateful words regarding Turks.

It' funny how you dismiss Murat as not being a realist, when he expresses something you disagree with. You don't have to worry about him after all he's an American-Turk. It's me sean that you need to worry about. I'm a Turkish-American, and I will defend Turkey against any entity that wishes it harm.

I would die for Turkey!!!!!

Redneck Texan said...

Bottom line: Hatred towards Turks breeds Nationalism.

...and there's nothing wrong with that.

There's a lot of Muslims (and Turks) that hate America, so I figure its OK to hate them back


I'm a Turkish-American, and I will defend Turkey against any entity that wishes it harm.

What if a war between America and Turkey resulted from either an attack on a Turkish military excursion into Iraq.....who would you defend then?

What percentage of Turks do you think were happy to hear about Dink's demise? I would suggest that its more than 50%.

gurkan said...

redneck texan,

What if a war between America and Turkey resulted from either an attack on a Turkish military excursion into Iraq.....who would you defend then?

My response to your hypothetical question is an emphatic YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Redneck Texan said...

Maybe you could smite the imperial infidel by blowing up your own house. ;-)

...but I guess that was like asking who would I defend in a war between Texas and the US....cause lord knows its hard being in any war where Rhode Island is supposedly on your side.

gurkan said...

I do not believe in war redneck texan. I believe that war is a contradiction, war is human beings behaving inhumanely for the sake of humanity.
The Muslims in the middle east do not hate America and all Americans, because of our freedoms. They hate us because of America's support and fabrication of Israel. Billion's and Billions of dollars of Aid is given to the APARTHEID state of Israel.
What do the people of Palestine get? Nothing, but American supplied ammunitions pointed at them.
You turn on the news, what do you see regarding Israel. "10 Israeli citizenz died today after a suicide bomber set off a bomb on a bus" but you are never told the reason for it. Then you turn on the BBC and you find out that yes 10 Israeli's died by a suicide bomber and 35 citizens of Palestine were killed earlier after a BlackHawk helicopter fired a missle into an apartment building.

Sean said...

Gurkan said: "It's me sean that you need to worry about. I'm a Turkish-American, and I will defend Turkey against any entity that wishes it harm. I would die for Turkey!!!!! "

Gurkan, get ready, because the way things are going now, you just might have to. By "Turkish-American" I assume you mean "American living in Turkey". Am I right? Either way, I am not worried about Murat or you.

I don't think Armenia is going to attack Turkey anytime soon. So, whatever changes take place, they won't be by use of force. They will be because of changes within Turkey and pressure from the outside (EU & US).

It will be interesting to see how the Kurdish Question will be solved between Turkey and US.

Bolsa Hye said...

Murat,

I would tend to agree with you that Nationalism is not always a bad thing. Sometimes its necessary to preserve the Nation. But sometimes, it has a dark side, and that dark side is too costly to the Nation.

In the case of Turkish nationalism, it's dark side rests in the fact that it excludes its minorities and breeds hatred against them. Turkish Armenians are Turks too, but in the eyes of Turks, they are foreigners who should not be trusted. Imagine the kind of dark propoganda that must fester throughout Turkish society to render Turkish-Armenians hated parasites. You know our history, and yet Turkish-Armenians have looked past this history and continue to live in Turkey; they serve in the military; they do your bidding against European interests; and they brush off every kind of putrid, discriminatory newspaper article and commonly used epithet unleashed upon them on a daily basis for the past 1000 years. They're the exact equivalent of the loyal dog whose loyalty only grows as the master increases his abuse. What more could you want from an ethnic minority than the Armenians of Turkey have given the Turkish nation? And now a champion of human rights, of equality, of bridging divides between our peoples, has been murdered by a nationalist, and you're still defending the nationalists! I'm not sure I can fully express my contempt of your viewpoint, which is the type of viewpoint that created the atmosphere of hate that lead to the murder of a peaceful man.

Murat Altinbasak said...

Let me clarify what "Amerikan Turk" means.. and why I reversed the typical "Turkish-American" hyphenation.. An Amerikan Turk is a Turk who can claim any one of the following attributes:
-born in the United States of Turkish parents
-mastery of the English language and considers Turkish their second language
-lives in the United States
We are basically the 2nd generation of Turks living in the US. The one that speaks without an accent. We even have a Yahoo group which anyone can join- there are almost 150 members. The red & white badge in the sidebar will direct you to the sign-up page.

Murat Altinbasak said...

Bolsa, there is a fringe of folks who believe the shooter was more of an Islamist than a Nationalist, due to his reference to Hrant Dink as an "infidel". My source on this is shaky, so we need to examine this more closely. But it does beg the question: What of Nationalists who are also Islamists? (By Islamist I basically mean "very devout", not necessarily of the al-qaeda flavor) Perhaps this is the deadly combination which needs to be bird-dogged as the most dangerous? I'm just thinking out loud here, so please refrain from judging me by these words. I am a "slightly" religious person, at best.

gurkan said...

bolsa,

You come off as a nationalist. It is people like you with their skewed mentality that have created this atmosphere of hate.

Dink's death was a tragedy and it is recognized by the majority of Turks as being just that. My God, man, the murderer's own father turned him in. Does that not give you an inkling of the nature of Turks. 3 years ago a bomb exploded in a synagogue in Istanbul, again the man was turned in by his own father, who later publicly disowned his son.

Your generalisation's make you appear ignorant. Just read your post, what about it is positive?

Is this so-called genocide all you have in life? Do you have nothing better to do but hang out on Turkish blog sites?
Man, get a hobby.

Bolsa Hye said...

Gurkan,

You are the one who appears nationalist, not me! Where in this thread did I say anything about the Genocide? Huh! Where! You're so f--king paranoid about that topic that you inject it into everything. I merely pointed out that nationalism is what killed Hrant. Who in his right mind is going to disagree with that at this stage?

No shit Hrant's death was a tragedy. The point is that it could have been any number of 100s of people who were frenzied into hating him by the likes of those who prosecuted him under f--cked up laws, and wrote lies about him in every media outlet available. And now those same people are crying that this was a bullet at Turkey! Give me a f---ing break! He was portrayed as a traitor by these same people, even though he was a bona fide Turkish patriot! They lied about him and about every Armenian still living in Turkey, and they managed to brainwash hundreds of would-be patriots into hating him and all of us. If it wasn't this young man, it would have been another. By calling me a nationalist, you're simply furthering my point, because, I know myself, and I know that I'm not a nationalist, just like Hrant Dink wasn't a nationalist. If you're not denouncing 301 and the atmosphere of hate created against your own minority citizens, then you're part of the problem as far as I'm concerned.

I'm from that country, just like you, and my roots go back in that country as far as yours, and maybe more. Don't try to intidimate me and silence me by calling me an Armenian nationalist. Those days are over! Now, its the day of those who want democracy, peace, equality, fairness, justice, friendship and brotherhood among all majorities, minorities, ethnicities and religeons in Turkey. You're a dinasour, and your days of "Turkey for the Turks" are numbered.

Redneck Texan said...

The Muslims in the middle east do not hate America and all Americans, because of our freedoms. They hate us because of America's support and fabrication of Israel. Billion's and Billions of dollars of Aid is given to the APARTHEID state of Israel.
What do the people of Palestine get? Nothing, but American supplied ammunitions pointed at them.


Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot.....ITS THE JOOOOOs.

How come the jews dont hate us for the Billions of dollars we give to Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey....and Palestine (most of which is in Arafat's swiss bank account.)

We give more money to the surrounding Arabs than we do Israel btw....check it out if you dont believe me.

But if they are attacking us because we wont stand aside and let them commit genocide in Israel....why do they hate each other so much? Why do they kill each other in the name of their religion more than they kill the jews? Why do Palestinians kill Palestinians? Do they do that because of America's support for the Jews? Or are they just natural born killers with a Koran beside their bed?

I am not a particularly big supporter of Israel myself, but what would you have them do about rockets raining down on their cities? Should they just hunker down and let them continue to rain down....because they deserve it? What would Turkey do if Greece shot a 1000 rockets into Turkey? Why should Israel continue to demonstrate the level of restraint that they do? They could end the violence tomorrow....if America did not restrain them.

btw Murat....this typing in a code before one can comment here really sucks.....but your blog does look much better without an ad below every single post.

gurkan said...

Now, its the day of those who want democracy, peace, equality, fairness, justice, friendship and brotherhood among all majorities, minorities, ethnicities and religeons in Turkey.

bolsa,

Your preaching to the choir. There is nothing more I could wish for than peace in this world.
If you want to make a difference, than go and preach your peace and love to all of your fellow Armenians, who preach hate. You will easily find them all over the net.

Please, lead me to one Armenian site, that does not preach hatred towards Turks.

And yes I am a nationalist, but not a blind one.

Where did I state that I wanted "Turkey for the Turks" bolsa?

gurkan said...

redneck,

You do not know what your talking about. Not one word in your post is accurate.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to dismiss you as being an Idiot.

Redneck Texan said...

My bad gurkan.....I had no idea you were too stupid to check my facts before you made a fool of yourself.

Here You Go Dumbass.....now just select Israel....write down with your crayon how much money we give them......then do the same for Egypt, West Bank/ Gaza, Lebanon, and Jordan, the nations that touch Israel, and add them...er....post them here and I will add them up for your stupid ass.

Then we will get into WHY the US sends aid to Turkey....Cause you would think a country that is so much older than the US would not need financial aid....wouldn't you asshole?

I dont understand how come a former great empire is such a financial basket case that Turks leave in droves every year for a better life.....pretty much any direction theu go. Perhaps its because blind idiots like you run things there and, like you, are too stupid to realize why, when the answer is right under your stupid nose.

gurkan said...

redneck,

I apologise for calling you an idiot. That was unnecessary, and very ignorant of me.

Your post is so inaccurate in regards to the aid given.
Please check your facts.

And the Joooos part, please man, you could do much better then that, it's to easy.

My reason for visiting this blog, was to gain insight on my fellow Turks. I wanted to see what they were talking and thinking about. And to share with them, our life experiences.
Instead, I find anger and hatred. People who turn every post into something negative.

My life has always been about peace and love for all mankind.Not discord. Frankly I'm more concerned about the genocide that is taking place in Africa today. I could care less about history, I rather focus on the future.

gurkan said...

Ok so your post got thru before mine.
Anyway, my apology still stands.

Sorry, but I'm not going to drop to your level again. SO no bad english for you.

Check your facts, and look up the word aid.

Redneck Texan said...

What I am trying to tell you gurkan is that I have "checked my facts". I gave you a link above to the official USAID greenbook so you can do the same.

Do so and you will find out that we give Egypt almost as much aid as we do Israel, and when you add up Israels remaining neighbors we give them MORE than we do Israel. Its not my opinion....Its a documented fact.

I am thinkin you have just heard the one side of the aid story you wanted to hear.

Now then, I ask you again....how come the Muslims, as you said, hate us for supporting Israel, but the Jews dont hate us for giving more to the Muslims?

Whats the difference?

gurkan said...

I was talking about aid given to Palestine in comparison to Israel.
Where does math come into play, redneck.
So, smart guy, how much was given to Palestine? make it easy for me, I'm not as intelligent as you. Oh and don't forget the aid given to Israel.

Is Turkey older then America. Are you certain of that. Maybe it's late and your not thinking properly.


Why is America so rich? UH could it be because it was founded on slavery(Free labor = High profit margins)

Could it be that money given to Turkey is for a military base. No, of course not, no it's given because our American govt is good hearted and very generous. Yeah, that's it.

Tell me redneck, the voice of Amerikkka, why do you think fundamentalist muslims hate us?
Please enlighten me.

Do you support our invasion of Iraq?

Redneck Texan said...

Well, since your too lazy to click on the link yourself:

Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.7 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects - more than from any other donor country.

Which goes to show how misinformed your:

What do the people of Palestine get? Nothing, but American supplied ammunitions pointed at them.

really is.

Guess where it all went gurkan.....either stashed away in Arafat's swiss bank account (I can document that too if you want) or spent on bullets to kill jews. By your logic the jews would be attacking America over that fact.

The rest of your diatribe will have to wait till tomorrow for an answer.

gurkan said...

Israel was given 13billion dollars of aid money in 2002 alone. Are you kidding me?

Bolsa Hye said...

Gurkan,

Redneck provides links to documented evidentiary facts. Please do the same, so we can try to follow this argument. So far, you are losing miserably, and that's coming from someone who isn't particularly happy with Israeli State hypocrisy.

As for your alleged concern for the Genocide in Darfur, what have you done about it? Have you written to your congressmen, have you protested in front of the White House, or the UN, have you done anything at all? Armenian-Americans were among the first groups in the U.S. to do these things. I know, because for almost 2 years now, I (and thousands of Armenians across the U.S.) have been getting action alerts from ANCA to help them lobby federal and state legislatures to take action against this Genocide. What has Turkey done, other than deny the first Genocide of the 20th Century? Do you think your ignorant denial of something you obviously know little about is going to help stop the Genocide in Darfur? Have you even bothered to do cursory research on the Armenian Genocide, before whining that you don't care about past Genocides?

Judging from your obvioysly worthless and lazy responses to Redneck, I'm going to guess that you're just another slop who talks big, but knows little.

istanbulexpat said...

Hrant Dink is a martyr for free speech!

Abolish Article 301!

Free Speech allows me to insult Turkey! I suppose all of your are speaking on American soil?

But I love Turkey! And I should have the right to say anything I want, but unfortunately I can't while living here.

Trabzon needs to do some serious PR damage control.

Living here for the last 6 years, I have seen first hand the nationalism grow, and it is NOT a symptom of loving ones country.

Oge said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Litmus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Litmus said...

Murat:

No. False. And again, you are offsides, comparing US to Turkish situation.

so you say, without explaining what the difference is and without providing a case for Turkish exceptionalism. If your logical premise for A does not hold for similar instance B, either your premise is flawed or you should show how B differs from A.

The forces which are at work against Turkey, by those whose very existence depends upon Turkey, are the real propagators of the Nationalism which they so hate.

Since you claim I misread your post tell me why you chose the phrase "the real propagators". Isn't the the logical conclusion of such a statement this: "If there are any negative consequences of Turkish nationalism the enemies of Turkey should first and foremost be blamed, and not the Turkish individuals/authorities who actually exercised a choice and decided to embrace the nationalism that resulted in the negative consequences." This is retarded, in my opinion.

I can show you one site that has an anti-American diatribe that is more hateful, more irrational, and more demented than the anti-Turkish rant you provided, and then using your same logic I can say that "the real propagators" of the harm and damage of Bush's policies is not the Bush Administration, but those who hate America. Which is why, I presume, redneck texan accepts your premise.

The reason I don't get a hard-on when I read rastibin's post is because I take comfort in the fact that Hrant Dink himself would have taken issue with the "yet another crime perpetrated by the Turkish race" line that she often takes.

Like I said, you have to be blind to claim that there are no Turkish sites that exhibit hatred toward Kurds, possibly because you surf through english site only and thus are being willfully ignorant (ironically, something you mock in your post). You obviously haven't been following this thing at all, or you would have read about the role of ultanationalist internet sites in this affair.

And frankly, I find your willfull ignorance dangerous, given that you already incomprehensibly defended Article 301 (and somewhat idiotically since laws more far-reaching than the US Patriot laws already exist to combat terrorism).

Gurkan said: "Turkey does not hate Kurds sean, Turks hate the PKK."

And what about the Turks who assume every Kurd is a PKK-supporter, an assumption that basically becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy? Have you actually not heard about people getting beat up because some psycho thought he was speaking Kurdish? Do me a favor and ask your commander if he thinks there are some Turks in Turkey who hate Kurds, or ask a taxi driver next time you're here. Or maybe this will help.

Or here is part of an email that was circulated sometime last year:

>SORUN BÖLÜCÜLÜK VEYA TERÖR DEĞİL;
>SORUN KÜRDÜN TA
>KENDİSİDİR...
>Kısacası "kürt sorunu" bazılarının
>Empoze etmeye çalıştığı gibi sadece PKK'dan ya da siyasi olaylardan
>ibaret değildir. Türkiye genelinde her türlü pis, rezil işi
>yapanların, her türlü adi suçu işleyenlerin büyük bir kısmı
>kürtlerdir. Genelev işleten kürdü, pavyon işleten kürdü, kumar oynatan
>kürdü, mafyacılık yapan kürdü, uyuşturucu satan kürdü, yankesicilik,
>hırsızlık, kapkaç yapan kürdü, kaldırımları parselleyen kürdü, ırza tecavüz
>eden kürdü emperyalistler kışkırtmıyor, PKK ile de ilgileri yok...
>Taşıdıkları kanın gereğini yerine getirerek bu suçları işliyorlar.
>Biz Türkçüler, sosyal açıdan değerlendirdiğimiz kürt meselesine
>Bir bütün olarak bakıyoruz ve bunların topluma zarar veren yaratıklar
>olduğu konusunda tüm Türkleri bilinçlendirmeye çalışıyoruz.

Redneck Texan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Redneck Texan said...

OK....another day.

Is Turkey older then America.

If your referring to the formation of the current Republic of Turkey, which was formed after the Ottoman Empire backed the wrong side in WW1, well then yes it is newer.

Didn't the Ottomans occupy Palistine too btw? Where's the outrage?

In my context I was referring to the peoples, commonly referred to today as Turks, who have occupied the Anatolian peninsula long before Europeans formed a nation in North America. My point being that THAT civilization has existed far longer than America has....why are they not presently much further advanced on an economic scale? They've had centuries more time to perfect theirs.

Why is America so rich? UH could it be because it was founded on slavery(Free labor = High profit margins)

Yeah man, you hit the nail on the head with that one Einstein....I dont even have to work for a living, I just get my royalty check from all the 18th century slave holders descendants slush fund....NOT. The Ottoman Empire didn't take non-Muslim slaves though....Did They?

I think it has more to with The Productivity of the American People Compared to the Turkish ones like you that wont even raise a finger to click on a link. I find it interesting that American, Northern European, and Orientals rank near the top of the global productivity index, while the Turks fall in middle somewhere behind Kazakhstan. Why do you figure that is?

Could it be that money given to Turkey is for a military base. No, of course not, no it's given because our American govt is good hearted and very generous. Yeah, that's it.

I hear a great deal of aid is earmarked to shore up inflationary economic reforms, and to help convince the Turks to stop trafficking in humans, but yes our great NATO ally does need their palms greased whenever we need to use their airbase to deal with the regional problems they wont. I am not dissing them as a NATO ally....in the Korean War they were very good allies. But if they want to be regional players again why do we have to stop the Persian Nuclear program for them?

Tell me redneck, the voice of Amerikkka, why do you think fundamentalist muslims hate us?
Please enlighten me.


Ah yes, thanks for asking. I think they hate us for the same reason a growing number of Turks resent us....to mask their shame at their own internal failures. A sentiment that is kept stoked up by their governments and Islamic Clergy to deflect blame for those failures away from themselves. Smiting the Jews and other Infidels is much better than blaming your corrupt leaders or the independent thought stifling tenets of your religion....a religion based on Arab cultural values.

I mean you know the world used to tremble at the sight of an Ottoman or Islamic Army coming over the horizon. Their culture was more advanced, their weapons and tactics were superior....but something happenned....they stagnated socially and technologically while the other cultures replaced them as global and regional superpowers. Thats got to be hard pill to swallow....Who Do You Blame ? Well if you cant, or dont want to, do some ugly inner reflection....its a whole lot easier to blame others for your failures. When the combined Arab armies repeatedly have their asses handed to them by the relatively tiny den of Jews in the middle of the Islamic world.....what choices remain but the cowardly terroristic ones?

Do you support our invasion of Iraq?

We of course I do.

Look man, (or whatever) virtually all my life Islamic Cultural Warriors have been attacking and killing my fellow infidels. For 25 years we brushed it off, and treated it like a police matter. Occasionally we would lob a cowardly cruise missile from a safe distance to zero effect. But now, for the first time in my life we are chasing belligerent Muslims who are attacking us through their own streets and putting a bullet in their heads. We can blow up their strongholds without going through the debacle of getting a Partisan Congressional Authorization Vote or a UN Resolution for every counter attack. That makes me feel a hell of a lot better than doing nothing like we did before.

Anyway....trying to get back on Topic before you interjected the Jews into the discussion....I really haven't been following the Hrant Dink story too closely. I dont know if his killer was motivated by Turkish Nationalism or a violent religious ideology, but as a semi-disinterested third party observer of Turkish affairs....I think you Turks should get off the Nationalist's asses. They are the only thing standing between you and a Democratic Coup in Turkey by the growing Islamist threat. If you dont have the courage to take up arms against hate spewing Islamic Cleric maybe they will. The Nationalist may beat your ass to a pulp on the Turkish Street for not participating in the mass denial of the Young Turk's Genocide of Armenians......but that will seem like a picnic after the Islamist forces arrest power away from the secular nationalist. They wont just gun you down in the street for making repeated anti-Turkish remarks, they will disembowel you family in front of you first, then cut you head off while they scream Allah Akbar. Turkey has been down that road.....look what it did to the Empire last time.

And now that I'm on a roll....all you ex-pat Turks need to stop looking at Turkish society with rose colored glasses. How dare you point the finger at anyone for being racist. Racism against the Kurds and Armenians is the bedrock of modern Turkish society.

And I really dont have a problem with that until you accuse others of being that way while denying your own oppressive, at time xenophobic, nature.

America was built on the back of Genocide and Illegal occupation of other's land. The natives were standing in our path to Continental supremacy.....and we blew their shit out of the water without remorse to take what they had and we wanted. Thats nothing to be ashamed about. We would not be a superpower today if our ancestors had not done it. Our current Empire only stopped growing and started to decline once we started having a guilty conscience about it. Once we started allowing Liberals to make policy. I dont see how y'all can stand to live with your status as a "Former Empire"....but I aint in any hurry to find out what that feels like.

gurkan said...

Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.7 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects - more than from any other donor country.

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years
Source-- http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

Now give me your source, because you are so wrong, redneck.
By the way, last year alone, Israel received more than 3 billion..
Hoe much did Palestine get?

Now then, I ask you again....how come the Muslims, as you said, hate us for supporting Israel, but the Jews dont hate us for giving more to the Muslims?

They would if your statement was accurate!

What I am trying to tell you gurkan is that I have "checked my facts". I gave you a link above to the official USAID greenbook so you can do the same.

You can not go by one source redneck, if obtaining facts were that easy I would not be agnostic about the Armenian issue. By the way I could not even find Palestine in the greenbook.

Here are several more links that may interest you:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0108-21.htm
http://www.americanfreepress.net/05_02_03/Blank-Check_/blank-check_.html
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israel.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

There are many more. Just google and thy shall find.

Bolsa said Judging from your obvioysly worthless and lazy responses to Redneck, I'm going to guess that you're just another slop who talks big, but knows little.

Bolsa, unlike yourself I have a life that exists in the present. I work, I study, and nurture my passions. I do not have much time nor do I want to waste my time reading your hateful words. I feel sad for you. You want sources, just google. Don’t be the lazy person that you accuse me of being.
Regarding Darfur, you state Armenian-Americans were among the first groups in the U.S. to do something helpful. Then you go and ask what has the COUNTRY of Turkey not Turkish-Americans done. Do you see the problem with your statement, because if you don’t I could explain it to you like I would a 4 year old.
Relax, your anger is going to be the death of you.
And yes, I did what I could do about Darfur. And I’m happy to hear you did the same.
Bolsa, redneck, maybe if we tried to understand each other, we would not be so hurtful to one another.

Please copy and paste, I dont know how the link thing works.
perhaps reneck, could show me.

Israel was given 13billion dollars of aid money in 2002 alone. Are you kidding me?
I meant to say since 2002 Israel recieved 13 billion dollars.

Bolsa Hye said...

Gurkan,

The reason why I asked what has Turkey done, rather than asking, what have "Turks" done, is because I don't want to give the appearance that I blame individual Turks for everything that is wrong in this whole Genocide mess that Turkey has created for itself, its people, and the Armenian people. That's why I said Turkey rather than Turks. But your point is a good one. Perhaps a better question is, what have Turkish-American organizations done to stop the Genocide in Darfur?

As for your studying, working, etc., it's nice that you do those things, but its not so nice that you assume I don't. I'm actually quite a hard working person too. That I make time to educate myself about the issues that interest me should not come as a surprise. The Genocide issue is very important for me, because like almost every Armenian in the Diaspora, it affected my family and I wouldn't be who I am, nor where I am, if it hadn't happened. If you can't understand that, then we will never understand each other.

As for your request that we try to understand each other, perhaps we (meaning you and I) would not have gotten off on the wrong foot if your first post to me didn't include the following insults:

"Is this so-called genocide all you have in life? Do you have nothing better to do but hang out on Turkish blog sites?
Man, get a hobby."

Those were the first words you ever wrote to me, before I ever said anything to you. Now, I'm not a proud man, I'm willing to forgive and forget the insult if you apologize.

gurkan said...

I was wrong and I do apologise.
I'm not at all about hurting people bolsa, If you knew me you would know that.

My stance as of right now on the Armenian issue is, as I have stated before agnostic. I am in search of the truth. I spent 3 months trying to Prove that it happened, to no avail.. My friends, could not understand why I was so passionate about the topic. They believed that my time would be better spent, on trying to stop the war in Iraq. The answer is simple, supposedly over a million Armenians were the victims of a genocide. Please do not be upset with me, for using the word supposedly.
There is so much conflicting information about the topic, that I find myself filled with questions that are both pro and anti genocide. I have so many questions---so many.

Bolsa Hye said...

Apology accepted. What questions do you have that are nagging at you about this topic?

Redneck Texan said...

Whatever gurkan, all I am trying to get you to understand is that, Yes, we give more more to Israel than we do any other individual nation, about 3 Billion a year....If it was up to me we would cut them off entirely and let them do whatever they have to do to keep from being destroyed by their Arab neighbors, I think it sucks that their survival has become our problem......but my only point was that we also give Egypt just about as much, around 2.5 Billion a Year, a total of over $50 since Jimmy's Carter bright idea of paying them not to attack Israel and calling it peace. And we have also given Billions of US taxpayer dollars to Jordan, Lebanon, and, yes, Palestine before Hamas was elected into power by the terrorist supporting voters. When you add it all up we give just about as much money to Israel's enemy neighbors as we do Israel, and you dont see the Jews using our "support" for its enemies as justification to blow up innocent people.

I personally dont have a vested interest in either side of the Israel issue. I could care less if or how they survive. Their only usefulness to me is that they are our canary in the coal mine so to speak, they will let us know when Islamic terrorists finally get their hands on a Nuclear Device. Once we see Israel vaporized by the Islamic bomb we will know its time to plug the coordinates of Mecca into our own, longer range, nuclear warheads.

But I am forced to pick a side in that conflict by the simple facts that Jews are not flying airplanes into my high-rises, Jews are not cutting my fellow Americans' heads off in the name of their prophet....but the other shitheads are......hmmm, let me think.....which side should I root for.....the one thats trying to kill me and my family....or.....

btw the 3 largest recipients of USAID in the last 10 years are Israel, Egypt, and Turkey.

Look, I am not here to argue the Palestinians plight with you, nor why America gives so much aid to Turkey.....What I would really like to ask all the Turks here, especially any that are still in the homeland.....What do you REALLY think about a nuclear armed Iran?

I know from arguing with Murat and other Turks at my blog that Turks see themselves as major regional players.....as do the Persians. Do the people in Turkey REALLY want to live under the umbrella of a Shiite Bomb? The Persian's missiles cant reach the US....but they can reach Turkey. Thats gonna give them considerable leverage in the regional pecking order. Thats going to put NATO Turkey in a real bad strategic position.

It looks to me like Turkey, along with Saudi Arabia who also consider themselves regional bad asses, would be out front on this issue of stopping Iran at all costs international debate.....whats the deal?

Are they afraid to come out and take a firm stand? Are they going to let us take all the heat to fix their problem? If you want to be a player dammit....PLAY NOW.

metin said...

i agree with you redneck. very valid points. the turks themselves have to rise above the politicians in turkey who are silenced by their own loudmouths and amateurish way of allowing opportunities pass on by.

Redneck Texan said...

Murat / metin......which one of those blogs in y'alls sidebars has the highest traffic of english speaking Turks living in Turkey?

I would like to pose the Iranian question to a larger cross section of Turks. Particularly of the Nationalistic variety.

metin said...

Murat . . . you take that one!

I would pick Erkan's Diary if you ask me.

Murat Altinbasak said...

You're right, Metin.. Erkan for sure. But I would also have to recommend Mustafa Akyol's 'The White Path' and 'Dr Ugur Akinci's 'Turkish Torque'. You could also join our Yahoo Group- 'Amerikan Turks', if only to pose your question and get some answers from ex-pat Turks. (Most Turkish bloggers are members there) Or else maybe I can take your comment and paste it into a message to the group for you.

Litmus said...

What do you REALLY think about a nuclear armed Iran?

I would think this would be better rephrased as "what would you be willing to do about it?" in order to avoid a simple majority response of "I think it's bad."

yes said...

What's the difference what Armenians or Greeks, you killed most of them anyway, right? Kurds are your country cousins, lik,e you , they are not civlized, thats why they didn't get it as bad as civlized ppl

Gulay said...

Nice balanced comment there yes, if I were you I would not post unless I had something to say. Actually there is a lot of nonsense written in some of these remarks about that period, for example Texan redneck mentions that the Ottoman's were linked with Germany. Correct but we were not occupied or successfully invaded, the word Gallipoli ring any bells. Of course the Ottoman empire was effectively finished in the same manner as all empires, Greek, Roman, Russian, British, French etc. When Germany surrendered and we did then we were occupied and the fate of the population left in the hands of the great powers. For anyone interested read "Paris 1919" for a dry but comprehensive view of the horse trading that went on and the arrogance and ignorance of most of the decision makers which included Wilson from US, Lloyd George from UK and Clemenceau of France. So after deciding to carve up the Ottoman empire and give it to the Greeks, Italians and French and any other non-muslim nation that asked for a bit, is it any wonder that when the raping and killing started in Thrace, Smyrna and around the Black Sea where the Russians were busily ethnically cleansing the are aof Muslims and around Smyrna that the "turks" left decided to fight for what they consider their land and who then established a country and a nation.

Oh and by the way this is Andy, Gulay's Husband who is British and often disagrees with the missus on these issues but agrees with her on the basic proposition that the treason should not be rewarded. That is not to say that many people died in that period but that is the point alot of people died on both sides so why do only the Armenians believe they can claim "genocide".

Murat Altinbasak said...

Andy thanks for the comment. You should join me in San Diego this February for a six day training camp! I plan to compete in the last stage of the Tour of California (the master's single day event preceding the final stage in Long Beach) I'm sure you could use a break from the cold. Tell me you're not still commuting by bike in the dead of winter..

Peacemaker said...

Andy thanks for the enlightened contribution. You are right that the British didnt have much to learn in dealing with "treasonous" minorities and subject peoples. A shame they werent able to liquidate those pesky Americans when they seceded although they almost succeeded with the Irish.

Of course, the Hutus were right to try and exterminate those treasonous Tutsis. Ditto the Serbs and those Bosnians and Kosovars.

But you know I can't help but think that calling a whole people (women, children, old people) "traitors" is racist. I am sure you are not that.

bolsa Hye said...

Peacemaker, I concur. When someone or group commits treason, you catch and punish the ones committing the treason. When you go further and punish everyone that's of the same ethnicity that it turns into a Genocide. No surprise that some "civilized" Brits may have difficulty understanding the distinction.

Sean said...

http://www.gazetem.net/ahmetaltan.asp

I hope that every Turk gets to read this article. While I can't read Turkish and have to assume that the translated version I got was accurate, it sounds like a very powerful article.


Here is the translated version, in English, from an Armenian Newspaper:

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=20824

Gulay said...

Murat, its very very tempting but work will not allow. In the process of bidding three contract worth $1.5bn and I am the package manager for them all...for my sins. I am not still commuting but am riding every weekend, snow or not on the mountain bike or road depending how I feel!!

Peacemaker and bolsa hey: I never said I agreed with liquidation just that people should be punished. Mass killing is not to be condoned by anyone. However you make an interesting point that those who commit treason should be punished directly. However when its a particular ethnicity what are you to do with their families etc. behind your lines. I agree that killing them is not the answer and in todays PC climate morally reprehensible, so lets say internment to ensure that the relatives of the people who commit treason do not now undermine your efforts to repel the invading army. But what do you do when its over, let a group of people back into your society who can create tension?, pretend nothing happened, please tell me what? Assimilation? Look at the Balkans for how successful that is. I don't know, do you?

And yes I agree the Brits have a less than perfect record, remember we invented the concentration camp during the Boer War long before the Germans in WWII. However I cannot agree with you regarding the Americans. Even a cursory reading will reveal that the original reaction to the uprising led by Washington was perceived as "free born Englishmen (who happened to be living in the American Colonies) standing up for the rights against a tyrant (King George III) who happened to be their own King. Most of the books written (by Americans) about the War of Independence make that point so it would have been rather difficult for the Brits to wipe out the......Brits and be accused of genocide. As a good example try 1776 by David McCullough or The First American, biography of Franklin if you doubt my word.

It is very easy to look back with perfect 20/20 hinsight and criticize with our highly evolved morals. But I feel that to understand events you have to consider the morals or ethics of the time. The events we are talking about happened in let's say the 1920's. Go back about 100 years and what can we find in the history of warfare. The battle of Talavera and the Peninsula campaign thats what. What happened there is that after a siege the British Army stormed the town and once inside the town was subjected to 3 days of sacking and looting where a large number of civilians were killed. Why you ask, well the rules of warfare at that time permitted three days of sacking if the local population had helped the army defending the town which is what happened at Talavera. In this instance it was the British Army but read any book about that period and you will see the same story repeated by any army you care to mention. By today's standards we would haul those troops up as they were in breach of the Geneva Convention but that did not exits, or as in Iraq troops would be accused of murder but by the standards of that period it was accepted. Was it genocide? Was it right, please feel free to judge people and events over whom you have no influence because i can't. Or seeing as you raise the Hutus and Tutsis what about the Zulu mefecane that slaughtered thousands in Southern Africa in the 1800's. Basically if Shaka Zulu turned up outside your town you either had to surrender or die. Genocide? Please enlighten me with your modern sensibilities if you feel qualified to judge a people, culture and set of morals you or I cannot possibly understand.

Oh and who ever said I was civilized? Can you not make comments without a personal attack?

Murat Altinbasak said...

"What do you REALLY think about a nuclear armed Iran?"

I feel the same way that Americans would feel about a nuclear armed Canada. Nothing to fear.
A US invasion of Iran is the biggest thing we should all be fearing and trying to avoid.
Let's face it, if Israel were somehow positioned in North America, the US wouldn't give a rat's ass about a nuclear Iran...
And if Israel didn't have nukes, Iran wouldn't show such an interest in them either.. Why not disarm Israel and be done with it?

Sean said...

"Why not disarm Israel and be done with it?"

That would never happen. No country, be it North Korea, India, Pakistan or Israel, will give up nukes after getting them.

What would happen to Israel if it gave up nukes, then Iran started making them? Israel would be rubble in 24 hours.

metin said...

Why don't we all make nuclear bombs and be done with it anyway. Pretty soon, we have to worry about the planet earth, wich will not discriminate in its harsh verdict against human abuse, regardless of the borders, nationalities, culture, religion, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. Why don't we become a global society and pick on a planet more our size than fight amongst ourselves?

Eray said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eray said...

As for anti-Turkism -it exists.

If you doubt it, then simply proceed to a few Armenian, Greek or Kurdish forums and judge for yourself if its real or not. (BTW, I am not saying all Greek, Kurds or Armenians are like this – not at all but some are)

As for people who do not put their real names besides their posts. Of course some do not due to worry about some nutcase coming after them – since we are talking the Internet here – valid point.

Others however don’t do so because it gives them free reign to say and do what they wish without any responsibility. Example: Turkish Daily News Member Forums. There was this one guy who was overly critical of Turks to the point I felt he was anti-Turkish. It turns out the same guy had written articles for Turkish Weekly News but when I read his articles they did not even remotely resemble his posts in the forums – it was as if it was two different people who wrote them. Why? Simple. In the articles his identification was disclosed where in the forums he hid behind his alias. I actually went ahead and posted his name in the forums and you should have seen this guy react. He started ranting and raving “I am a big bad international lawyer, you don’t know my background etc” Keep in mind all I did was expose who he was… but I guess he works and lives in Turkey, married to a Turkish wife and has Turkish friends who all I am guessing would not be too impressed by his posts. Needless to say I did delete his information but the point is that some people have inner demons, issues etc which they cannot let out in daily life. But when behind a computer they can say/vent it all out. If you ask me this is the true them and the one I would most want to see.