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05 April 2007

Armenian-Turkish Concert at Brown University **cancelled**

I'm hopeful that there's a breakthrough in the next 24 hours, but not too optimistic. This is very unfortunate. Please check back on Friday for an update. -AT
 
Serhat has left a new comment on your post "Hrant Dink: Water Finds It's Crack":

"I've just learned that the Turkish-Armenian Joint concert has been cancelled. Some "heros" from an Armenian Organization used all their power for this event not to happen. Armenian musicians mysteriously decided not to take part. Now Hrant Dink murder is making much more sense to me. There are many who can't stand even the simple idea of Turks and Armenians sitting together and listening to some music.
Hrant kept saying "no matter what we should be together"."

84 comments:

Sean said...

I don't know about the circumstances of this cancellation, however, I am not surprised that it was cancelled. You have to look at this from the Armenian point of view. Every time we try to push an Armenian Genocide resolution thru, Turks start pretending like we are all friends and everything is fine. Several times in the past, Armenians have fallen for this trick, which leads outsiders to believe that everything is fine and we should let Armenians and Turks "work this out on their own". Well, as soon as the pressure from the resolution passes, Turks go back to being ... Turks.

If you look at the bigger picture, look at the problems with Akhtamar, look at the pattern of Turkish requests for the so-called commission to investigate the Genocide, you will see that these "friendly gestures" from Turkey only come when Turkey needs a way out.

That's exactly what this was. I have an idea. Let's wait until the US Congress & Senate have recognized the Genocide. Then, after that, let's organize another concert. My feeling is that all the Armenians will show up and you won't see a single Turk there. Why not? Let's make friends. What happened to the good intentions?

Armenians have been fooled one too many times by the Turks. They have learned their lesson. I am glad that they are not falling for it again.

If you go back and look at the so-called "commission" proposal from Turkey, it came right around the time when the west started to seriously look at the Genocide. Why wasn't Turkey proposing the commission before? They used to just deny it. Now, when others are disagreeing with the Turkish government, they want to set up a commission to investigate it.

What is going to happen after years of discussions? The Armenians will say it happened and the Turks will say that it didn't happen, leading to an impasse, a dead end. In the meantime, the world has looked at the so-called commission and has said "isn't that great, the Turks and the Armenians are finally facing their past."

Even if some of the members of the commission were "3rd parties", what would Turkey say if those 3rd parties agreed with the Armenians? Would they really accept their findings? or would they said that the Armenian Diaspora probably bribed them? Same would happen if the 3rd parties agreed with the Turks.

Do you honestly believe that those 3rd parties cannot be influenced? Wouldn't they have their own reasons for voting one way or the other?

Look at the US Supreme Court. Even they almost always vote based on party lines.

don't blame the Armenians for not falling into another Turkish trap. Like Bush said "Fool me once ..."

Well, Armenians have been fooled over and over again by the Turks.

cem said...

sean, there is absolutely nothing you can say that can justify the forced cancellation of a peaceful gathering. Nothing. But you can write some 11 paragraphs of hate filled rubbish. After all there's no rest for the wicked.

serhat said...

Sean,
You are funny on so many levels. First of all if you think that the people who organized this event (Turkish and Armenian PhD students) planned this as a softener against the congress solution, well, you are one inch from paranoia. And it's a disease, just so you know...
And if you are being fooled this many times that means you are really a fool. And we know that Armenians are anything but fools. This people who cancelled this concert spent hundreds of millions of dollars for this resolution and, come on, fools can't make this much money. Besides, If I had this amount of money and if I really cared about my people I would send it to my country which is very poor and desperate. I don't think you guys give a damn about people in Armenia. You are after your own genocide game which is a huge industry for you. Sorry but you should face it, this is the fact. And one last thing; do you really think that this resolution's passing or not is going to change anything for Turkey or any Turk? Wake up buddy. You are the ones who are taking it so seriously, we have better things to do. The idea behind this concert was very simple: We are friends with a lot of Armenians here and really wanted to get together and listen to some decent music, and guess what, we're gonna do it anyway, we don't need some organization names to do it under. pick up your oud and duduk, and guitar and come over, that's it...
And I promise you if this solution passes these people will be up for the biggest Turkish Armenian event in New England. Don't confuse everyone with yourself, digging for a political connection. Hrant Dink was right: You need to get rid of the bad Turkish blood in your veins and brains... That's the only solution.

Ozge Can said...

Our Armenian-Turkish concert was prevented by outside parties pressuring our musicians not to perform. The Turkish Cultural Society and Armenian Students' Association at Brown are still committed to creating events of mutual benefit aimed at creating apolitical dialogue. Even though the situation was completely outside our reach, we apologize to all our friends and guests for this unfortunate cancellation and any inconveniences caused by that.

Brown Turkish Cultural Society and Armenian Students' Association

Sean said...

Serhat, I started by saying that I don't know about the circumstances of the cancellation. So, I don't have anything to add.

Serhat said "do you really think that this resolution's passing or not is going to change anything for Turkey or any Turk?"

While I have high hopes, I also know deep down inside that very little will change. I am hoping that at the very least, if and when the resolution passes, some Turks in Turkey will say "humm, maybe I should do some research and find out what this is all about. All those American Congressmen and Senator can't all be completely wrong and bribed."

That's also my goal for posting on this and other sites, and for having my blog: to encourage Turks to look into the Genocide on their own, instead of listening to the state-owned TV & radio.

That's all.

serhat said...

Sean,

Let me tell you what will happen if this solution passes. Turks won't go "Hummm" they'll go "Grrrrr". Everything is gonna be farther from a real solution.
What changed when France and tens of others passed similar lagislations? Do you really think that forcing these kind of acts in other countries' congresses will twist what Turks believe.
Is your mind gonna change if this doesn't pass? Are you gonna say "Humm all American Congressmen can not be wrong, maybe it wasn't a genocide, maybe I should start doing something real for my people in Armenia"??
Anyone, who is not a teletubby, knows that American congressmen don't feel your pain in their hearts this is about America's interests. As long as they think that Turkey is still usable for them they don't give a shit about your genocide game.
And bribery? Oh yea it exists.
How about a real honesty when discussing these issues...

That aside, with all due respect, I really don't think you guys are after a solution, you are after a game that was drilled into your heads when you were a child. You keep accusing Turks of being slaves of their State's offical ideology yes in a sense that's true but you guys are much worse. I've seen one more time through this concert thing that your brains are totally shut off. I say "hi" you respond like "you killed my grandfather". Hello, 75 million people died in two world wars. How about some effort to deal with those who organize these wars instead of dealing with students organizing peace concerts.

Whatever,,, I know no matter what I say all you hear is: "denial denial denial denial"

Anonymous said...

Some thoughts about the cancelled concert.


I think the fact that this concert was to be held on Good Friday, which is a very significant Christian religious observance, may have shown some insensitivty to the fact that Armenians are Christians. Good Friday occurs during Lent and as such, a concert or other 'festive' type event is traditionally not done.

Secondly, upon looking up the event online, it was disheartening to me to find such anti Armenian 'sentiment' a mere two or three web clicks away from the Brown Turksish Students Associations' website.

Besides the two "Articles by our Members' which were displayed on the site, being clearly anti-Armenian, there were links to other Turkish organizations which prominently displayed an anti Armenian rally on April 21, in New York City's Times Square.

In addition to those examples, practically the entire right column of the website tafd.org, which was three clicks away from the advertisement flier for the Armenian-Turkish concert, was dedicated to anti Armenian materials.

One of the worst is a link titled "ARMENIAN ISSUES - allegations - facts" which takes you right to the "Republic of Turkey Ministry of Culture and Tourism" website which is LOADED with not only genocide denials but questions the sheer existence and history of the Armenians.

Perhaps, if people like Ozge, Murat and Serhat and the like are sincere about wanting an event where "Turks and Armenians sitting together and listening to some music" , then perhaps they should look at all this material I outlined and remove all of it from their website and open themselves up to a greater understanding.

I'm sure a concert featuring the likes of the performers you had scheduled would have been a great testament to the Turks' and Armenians' common musical threads, and could have been enjoyed by both ethnicity's, however, I strongly think that given these web sites proximity to the promotion of the event itself, made the prospect a very uncomfortable one.

Sean said...

Serhat,

you said "Do you really think that forcing these kind of acts in other countries' congresses will twist what Turks believe."

I said nothing about TWISTING Turkish opinions. All I said is that I hope Turks will do some research. Even if at the end, they end up agreeing with the Turkish government position, I will be happy.

You said "Is your mind gonna change if this doesn't pass?"
No, my mind won't change, because I have done lots of research on this topic. I have read books from the Turkish side. Can you say the same about the Armenian books?



You say "And bribery? Oh yea it exists. How about a real honesty when discussing these issues..." I didn't suggest bribery doesn't exist. I just said that if the resolution passes (which would require majorities in both Congress & Senate) I don't think anyone would say that all those who voted for the Resolution were bribed.

By the way, speaking of bribery, read this article:
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1936.shtml

You said: "I say "hi" you respond like "you killed my grandfather"."

Where did this come from? I am having a discussion on this site. I haven't accused anyone, as you suggest.

You said "Whatever, I know no matter what I say all you hear is: "denial denial denial denial""

I just responded to most of your comments, and not once did I use the word "denial". I hope you will change your opinion of me. I am after a discussion, not baseless accusations or name-calling.

I think by talking and getting to know each other's points of view, we are all benefiting.

Anonymous said...

More thoughs on the cancelled concert....

Perhaps there were 'outside parties pressuring our musicians not to perform", because none of those 'outside parties' were informed of the event or even INVITED to attend the event, in advance of maybe a few days ago.

Perhaps if this was in fact an attempt to encourage "dialogue', then steps should have been taken to insure that this event would be known about in advance, by the Armenian community of RI.

It would have certainly been easy enough to send some flyers out to the community. If this was found out about early enough, people would have had more of an opportunity to learn about who was actually involved in the event, it's sponsors, and if there were issues, they might have been resolved as a result of "DIALOGUE" , and perhaps the event would have gone on unscathed.

Some of the people posting on this blog seem to be reasonable and open minded, while others, maintain a harshness and narrow mindedness.

I can appreciate what Sean says as well as Ozge.. there seems to be some real potential at some real dialogue and understanding.

I really would like someone from Brown Turkish Cultural Society to address my previous comments about the anti Armenian materials connected with your website .

Signed:
They call me Kevork

Ozge Can said...

Dear Anonymous,
Thanks a lot for your constructive critisicm. I'll forward your comments to all the members of our organization team.

Once again, we tried to bring people together no matter where they stand on the genocide issue. As a matter of fact, our Armenian friends in Brown are all supporting this bill. And they knew our views on the issue perfectly well and likewise we knew theirs. In our first meeting, we decided not to go into this at all (we were not hoping to change the views of one another, that was not the point at all) and just do something totally apolitical which we thought would only have good influences on our communities, and we worked really hard to get this concert going in the middle of our exams and deadlines, etc.

As for the good friday: you are absolutely right about that. It was our mistake, we reserved a concert hall real early in the semester (otherwise its too late) and this overlap was totally overlooked, this is another big lesson for us.

By the way, this is like a special weekend for many Christian and Jew friends alike, I wish everyone good observances.

Anonymous said...

Sean said,

Anonymous said...
More thoughs on the cancelled concert....


Signed:
They call me Kevork

Hey Sean I see you got a new name.

kevork said...

Oh geez...

It was NOT Sean who posted under anoymous.. it was me.. signed... "they call me kevork"

I am NOT sean... I am an Armenian American from RI and I have heard about what was going on. It is not fair to think someone as vocal as Sean seems to be, would have the need to pose under another name.

serhat said...

Sean,

It looks like we are going to get into a whole detailed "was that a genocide" documentary which is useless so I'm not gonna do that.

Your argument simply suggests that if someone did enough research on the issue they would see the "fact" which is, of course, what you've reached. Well this argument is wrong. There are just as many people, including me, who read the same books or articles and still keeps their stance on both sides. Let me give you an example. Yalcin Kucuk, a socialist Turkish intellectual, who spent a lot of time in jail in Turkey. Noone can be more hateful to the Turkish Official propaganda than this guy. He wrote a sheer volume of books on politics, secret services, history etc. And he simply refuses to call it a genocide. Bottom line is that the label we choose to put on the 1915 atrocities doesn't make what those people went through any less painful or meaningful.

One last thing. Turkey has hell of a road to go in so many issues. But people are able to write books in Turkey that totally support Armenian allegations, there are scholars who are totally for the Armenian side, they even held an international conferance on the issue last year. What about Armenia and Armenian diaspora? They can't even stand a 5 minutes video of Hrant Dink, a pro-genocide Armenian journalist who got killed because he refused to be side by side with the populist crowd from both sides. Because he chose to give the right message. Maybe it's not only the Turkish side who should be more open to the unbias research and dialogue.

There is no further research that is gonna change anybody's opinion. It's been almost a 100 years and minds have been set, decisions have long been made for both sides. I would listen to Hrant: "Stop spending all your effort to Turks and Turkey and everything about it and start doing something for your people suffering in Armenia"

kevork said...

I thought I posted this before, but it didn't show up.

Ozge,

Though it's a great idea to be able to put aside differences, political or otherwise, for an evening to enjoy common interests like our respective and shared music, it is very difficult to do this on any scale, when there is such a long standing history of the trouble and opposition that Turks and Armenians continually shared.

It is a result of these very hard lined differences of opinion that cause any kind of 'joint' effort to be questioned and not always taken for face value.

After I sent the comments about the materials on the website, and from reading as much as I can find about your group and it's desire to have held this concert for the sake of the music, it made me wonder if you view that material on the web as just a fact of life, it's there, you know it's there, but you ignore it? Or are the Anti-Armenian materials promoted on those linked sites also YOUR views? , but despite that, you have Armenian friends, who, together with you, have chosen to 'agree to disagree" and thus hang out together and listen to music, eat kebab and play the duduk and dumbek?

It would be one thing for some Yankees fans and some Red Sox fans to 'agree to disagree' and enjoy a nice poker game and a few beers. But to think that Armenians will turn the other cheek and participate in an event with known genocide deniers would be another thing.

Armenians have been carrying this 'burden' for nearly the last 100 years. The 'trauma' has transferred generationally forward. The same is true for the Turks. The denial is all you know. It's what the government mandates is taught. It's tantamount to the way radical islamists hate the west- they're taught it in school and grow up with those beliefs. It is becoming evident with the vocalization of such authors as Pamuk and Akcam as well as Fethiye Çetin, who found out her grandmother was Armenian, that many Turkish intellectuals are coming to terms with her dark past. Accepting ones past, is the only key to forging ones destiny.

Ruben said...

Dear Kevork

I absolutely understand, and in some cases share many of your views in regards to this concert. The organization of it was far from perfect, more due to the fault of the ASA than of the TCS. The concert was scheduled for early March but we couldn't get everything together by then, afterwards we had to settle for the first available day as far away from April 24th. I unfortunately did not remember about Good Friday and understand why people could be upset by this. Organizing a Turkish-Armenian event is inherently difficult, and i still believe that given our limited experience, we did a respectable job that fell a mere day short of culminating with this concert.

I also believe that as Armenians committed to our cause we need to stay vigilant events that would be exploited against the Armenian cause (i.e. the terrible handling of the Akhtamar restoration). HOWEVER, we cannot dismiss every effort as having bad intentions, especially as the ASA and TCS had made everything in our power to correct these issues. This event was supposed to be a fairly small cultural campus gathering, which is why I did not go out of my way of informing every single influential Armenian of this, knowing that word travels fast among Armenians.

To summarize my personal view on this: I understand why some Armenians were upset at this event, and I understand the concerns. The appropriate response to this is to not attend, but forcing us to cancel the event against our will, putting months of dedicated work in vain was extremely inappropriate.

Please contact me with any further comments/questions.

Ruben, Brown ASA

Anonymous said...

Geez Sean, now you want to convince everyone you're Kevork, how sad.

Seanork, nothing in your above post holds water.

Seanork you can call me Daddy.

kevork said...

Dear Anonymous ( the one that is NOT me, but thinks I am Sean)...

your comment:

"Anonymous said...
Geez Sean, now you want to convince everyone you're Kevork, how sad.

Seanork, nothing in your above post holds water.

Seanork you can call me Daddy."



has prompted me to call my friends at the FBI and CIA and reccomend you for employment there. You are some slick spy. Sherlock Holmes has nothing on you my friend. ( and no, I won't call you daddy)

You must think you figured out that I am Sean, because I mentioned how I thought "sean and Ozge were reasonable sounding" individuals.. and I did that because I wanted to give the appearance that I had a fan on this blog.... ..ohh.. and I mentioned Ozge.. cuz I think she's really cute and I want to fly to RI and maybe she can meet me at Effendis in Cranston or maybe even East Side Pockets for some kebab and stuff.. and she and I can talk and settle this whole thing... we can "make very nice"...

Oh.. wait..

how would Sean.. know about Effendis... or.. East side Pockets..
or.. waterfire..or... thayer street.. or.. buddy cianci's jail time.. or..

give it a rest...

Murat Altinbasak said...

Well... we are going out shortly. No sense wasting a baby sitter! I think we'll go to Spain or Cheesecake Factory or go have a bison steak at Ted's.. Those of you in RI know how to reach me. Thanks for all the visits and comments on this event. Maybe it can be rescheduled.. maybe we should try to coordinate something with Waterfire? That would be amazing...
I want to say just one thing.
We were quite looking forward to making some Armenian friends tonight at the concert. Yes I believe people can say "let's agree to disagree" and focus instead on common interests, education, music, hobbies, employment, children, sports et al..AND have respect for eachother all the while..

Ozge Can said...

well Turkish and Armenian men are really similar...

kevork said...

Murat,

I hope you enjoy your evening.. let me know if that bison steak is any good.

I can fully appreciate the work and effort that went into the concert, and as Ruben said, it was a great deal of effort. I know what it's like to put on an event.

Honestly, this is the first time I've ever had a conversation, if you will call it that, with a Turkish person. I know that deep down, we're all human. I know that we, as Turks and Armenians have many cultural and other aspects of our identities that are similar. I know there are influences both ways, especially in the areas where Armenian populations were significant. Growing up, I learned to speak Armenian concurrent with English. Many of the words my "Vanetzi' grandmother (she was from Van) taught me were Turkish. I learned even a few phrases in Turkish. We like similar foods, listen to and dance to similar music, in some cases even have similar physical appearances ... and yet.. there is one huge thing that separates us ... and it is not something that we can "agree to disagree' on.

To believe that that is possible, is not to fully understand the impact of the Armenian genocide and the subsequent years of denial.

To believe that , is not to be one tiny bit sympathetic or sensitive to what it was like growing up being Armenian and having to explain our history to our "odar" (non Armenian friends) because it wasn't included in any of the curriculum.

To believe that is not to understand what it's like as collective culture of 2nd generation Armenian Americans whose family trees end at grandma and grandpa IF we're lucky.

To believe that we can "agree to disagree' and share other things in life which we have in common as you mention, is to totally disregard what is such a significant part of our history, existence and our identity.

This is way too big to simply "agree to disagree" the wounds are way too deep, and the trauma has been passed down generationally in so many obvious and unobvious ways.

Years ago, I started to collect old history books about Armenian history and the massacres in the late 1800s up to and beyond the genocide of 1915. I have managed to collect a great number of original publications from the times when these events happened. It puzzles me that modern day Turkish sentiment is that there was no genocide, and that historians need to delve deeper into this matter in order to "sort out the facts" in order to resolve the "Armenian question".

Why?

Were the books written back in the late 19th century and early 20th century fiction? Were they part of some master plan that the Armenian Genocide would be fabricated in writing back then, so that at some point in the future, the Armenian Diaspora could take issue with the Turks on it?

If there are countless volumes of historical accounts from when these events occurred, why is there a need to reinvestigate the 'truth'?

This has gone on long enough. I am confident in our lifetime, we will see this resolved and we as collective peoples can move on, and move foreword.

I will take an incredible amount of work and dedication and commitment to overcome the years of misinformation and aggregate anger, but if there is sincerity and understanding, it might be able to be achieved.

Kevork

Anonymous said...

Professor Norman Itzkowitz(Pinceton University)

When I was the Master at Wilson College here I had a student, an Armenian, who followed me almost every day and had at least one meal a day with me and asked me over many, many times how could I teach the history that I teach. I teach the history of the Turks. How could I give the students the things to read; Didn't I know what the Turks had done to his people?

I'm very slow to anger. After two years I asked him to come to my office and he came to my office and I asked him, "where do you get this from? What have you read?"

And he stopped and he said, "I haven't read anything."

I said, "Where did you get it from?"

He said, "I get it from my grandmother."

I said, "Well that's typical. Your mother and father are out working to make enough money to send you to Princeton and granny's got nothing to do but sit at home and fill you full of this stuff."

[ laughter from the audience ]

And I gave him a long list of books. I said "read them and come back." Well he never came back. And the reason is that all of this ethnic conflict business, I think we have to understand, at the bottom is irrational. It has nothing to do with rationality. They don't want to know anything and they will not take the time to inform themselves about what's going on.

Anonymous said...

Abdülhamit II (1876-1909) was a paradoxical, unappealing man, ruling over an unhappy country. Increasingly fanatical concerning religion and politics as his people began to rebel, he was inconsistent in his attitude toward modernization. While he suppressed the Ottoman Parliament, he also expanded the military and the educational systems. The restive Armenian minority sought European intervention and engaged in one assault after another, including the raid on the Ottoman bank in Istanbul.

Thousands, even tens of thousands are said to have perished and the Armenian revolutionaries share with the Sultan the culpability for their deaths. There may have been cases when, by their avarice and treachery, the Armenians deserved the hatred of their Turkish neighbors, but once the fanatical passions of the mob had unleashed, there was no discontinuity between the innocent and the guilty. *
* From The Sultan: The Life of Abdul Hamid II by Joan Haslip (1958).

kevork said...

This post is directed at Anonymous:
I believe you forgot to copy and paste the SECOND part of the web page where you found the comment from Izkoweicz...

Perhaps you should go back to that website and read the rest of it.

I have been writing on this blog today not citing historical references or any other materials. I have been speaking from my mind and in a reasonable and logical fashion.

I will not participate in the provocation of one or a fews' attempt engaging me into a war of cutting and pasting.

So much for open and frank discussions.

Sean said...

I am NOT posting as Kevork. Murat can verify that based on our IP addresses. I don't see a reason for trying to hide my identity.

Anonymous said...

ruben said:

I also believe that as Armenians committed to our cause we need to stay vigilant events that would be exploited against the Armenian cause (i.e. the terrible handling of the Akhtamar restoration).

If only Turks could do the same.

Anonymous said...

Writing for EurasiaNet, Armenia Now’s Gayane Abrahamian examines the controversial issue of collecting passports and voter information ahead of Armenian polls. This has been a feature of all recent elections to date, and the practice appears to be more widespread for the May vote than at any other time before.

Reports of pro-government political parties allegedly seizing voter passports has become one of the most controversial issues surrounding the conduct of Armenia’s May 12 parliamentary elections. While both the ruling Republican Party of Armenia and the influential Prosperous Armenia Party have denied any involvement, opposition parties charge that the practice could seriously affect the outcome of the vote.

Rosa Sanasarian, a 72-year-old resident of Yerevan’s central Avan neighborhood, told EurasiaNet that she was forced to hand over her passport data to district officials to receive a two-month social welfare payment. The officials stated that they needed the information to register Sanasarian for the funds.

[…]

Not all voters, however, object to handing over their passports. In Charbakh, a suburb of Yerevan, Gurgen Mkrtumian, a 62-year-old construction worker, said that he handed over to Prosperous Armenia Party members the passports for all five of the voters in his family in exchange for 25,000 drams (about $70).

“The party that’s been chosen to win will be elected no matter whether I vote or not,” Mkrtumian explained. “I will at least get the money I need very much.” Mkrtumian said that he intends to stand by his pledge to vote for Prosperous Armenia in return for the cash. “I have taken the money and I have given my word as a man,” he said.

Members of Armenia’s opposition claim that Prosperous Armenia, named the frontrunner in many opinion polls, and the ruling Republican Party of Armenia (RPA) are using the passport scoops to avoid detection of more overt forms of vote manipulation on election day by international observers, who are expected to scrutinize this vote more heavily than usual.

[…]

Both the Republican Party and Prosperous Armenia Party have strongly denied that they are involved in collecting passports or paying voters for the information.

Kevork said...

Sean...

In clicking your profile link, I see you are from California. I am from Rhode Island. In my sarcastic reply to 'anonymous' who was hell bent on thinking you -Sean- was posing as Me -Kevork.-, I named places and things in RI which you would have no way of knowing about.

Such interference only serves to deflect topics etc.

I think I've seen enough here. I asked twice for a member of the Brown Turkish group to comment on the content on websites attached to their own. They haven't.

I also asked if the sentiments on the anti-Armenian links from their site were also their sentiments. There was no response, other than an explanation by Murat that in fact since they and their Armenian friends at Brown have different views on the issue, the resolution, etc., and yet they planned this event in unison.

This is not acceptable.

Issues do not get resolved by agreeing to disagree.

Court cases do not become settled if the jury 'agrees to disagree'. ----" Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, have you reached a verdict?" " Your honor, we have not, we have agreed to disagree" " Very well then, the defendant will be surgically bisected, with the left half to serve 20 years in jail and the right half to be released." "Thank you for your service to this court" ---

Congress and the Senate or any other government body, do not accomplish any solid function if all they had to do was agree to disagree.

The divorce rate would not be so high in this country if the chronically bickering couples simply could 'agree to disagree" and move on in their marriages, sitting together and listening to their favorite CD on the stereo and eating kebab.

kevork said...

My dear friend Anonymous...

In response to your last post detailling the alleged election bribery that may or may not be going on in Armenia today, I am gathering that your implication for posting this is to suggest that the Armenians will bribe anyone to get things done in our favor. I believe you Turks call it 'bakhshish".

Well.. thank you so much for uncovering this for me. This prompted me to do some further reasearch and I must tell you what I found.

Besides all the books I've collected over time, I also have a collection of the news headlines from the NY Times and other news papers and magazines of that era. All of these articles and stories of course told of the mass killings and deportations of the Armenian people.

What you probably didn't know is that there was an Armenian who worked at the newspaper and late at night, when everyone was asleep, he would go to the printing plant of the NY Times, and slip the printer guy a few dollars, a bag of his wifes choreg and some fresh goat cheese, from the goats that he kept in his back yard. He then would hand the printer guy a stack of made up stories and the printer would switch the real stories and these made up ones would come out in the paper every day.

In addition to these news articles, many Armenian merchants would give out free bags of leblebou to pay bystanders to become eyewitnesses. As a result of all these news stories and eye witness accounts testifying as to the plight of the Armenians, the world reached out and sent millions of dollars in aid for the Armenians. Talk about running a successful scam.


Gosh.. .now I see why the Turk publishers of denial... have so much fun!.. It's fun to play "make believe".

cem said...

Dear Kevork said...

What you probably didn't know is that there was an Armenian who worked at the newspaper and late at night, when everyone was asleep, he would go to the printing plant of the NY Times, and slip the printer guy a few dollars, a bag of his wifes choreg and some fresh goat cheese, from the goats that he kept in his back yard. He then would hand the printer guy a stack of made up stories and the printer would switch the real stories and these made up ones would come out in the paper every day.

In addition to these news articles, many Armenian merchants would give out free bags of leblebou to pay bystanders to become eyewitnesses. As a result of all these news stories and eye witness accounts testifying as to the plight of the Armenians, the world reached out and sent millions of dollars in aid for the Armenians. Talk about running a successful scam.

Gosh.. .now I see why the Armenian publishers of fiction... have so much fun!.. It's fun to play "make believe".

cem said...

Kevork said...
Sean...

In clicking your profile link, I see you are from California. I am from Rhode Island. In my sarcastic reply to 'anonymous' who was hell bent on thinking you -Sean- was posing as Me -Kevork.-, I named places and things in RI which you would have no way of knowing about.





Sunset Grill Restaurant - Tel: 714-969-2233
200 Main St #105, Huntigton Becah, CA 92648
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bay Front Cafe Restaurant - Tel: 714-675-3779, Fax: 714-675-4176
3412 Via Oporto #103, Newport beach, CA 92663
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gulen's Mediterranean Cuisine - Tel: 310-785-0504
Century City, Los Angeles CA

I live in NYC, bit if you like I can give you a larger list of Turkish Restaurants in California.

I stand by my first reply to this post:

There is absolutely nothing you can say that can justify the forced cancellation of a peaceful gathering!

Piyaz For Dinner said...

Cem

Good effort on posting an original idea.

Kevork said...

Cem said
There is absolutely nothing you can say that can justify the forced cancellation of a peaceful gathering!

Kevork says.

Oh yes there is. ARMENIANS will not 'fraternize' with known and vocal genocide deniers. End of story.

Bolsa Hye said...

Being an Armenian from Istanbul who grew up with many Turks in my family's circle of friends and relatives, I would have tended to agree that the benefits of this concert outweigh its detriment. However, as I've gotten older and seen the way the Armenian community is treated and viewed by a large portion of the Turkish community, I have to agree with Kevork that such events are more damaging than good. The Armenians have lived in Istanbul for over 90 years since the Genocide. Even after what their ancestors suffered, they have remained its most reliable and patriotic citizens. They have adopted the position of the Turkish government and they have refrained from teaching their children and grandchildren about the Genocide. And what has all of that gotten us over the past 9 decades? Are the Turks any closer to accepting the truth? Are they any closer to looking at Turkish-Armenians as valuable and reliable citizens? Are they any closer to treating Turkish-Armenians the exact same way that they treat ethnic Turks? Why do the Armenians even today live in constant apprehension that a spark could trigger a catastrophe? In other words, have the Turks made any progress even in a community where the Armenians have adopted exactly the Turkish attitude about this subject and where for 9 decades the two peoples have been living together and having these "cultural events" together on a daily basis, i.e., they have been living these events?

So, why should we expect that events like this will change anything when they haven't changed one iota over 90 years of co-existence inside Turkey?

I don't think it's fair to ask anything more from Armenians. Asking us to forget the Genocide and make nice nice with organizations who actively deny that a Genocide occured is certainly asking too much in my view.

cem said...

Dear Bolsa Hye, I completely understand your feelings regarding the history between our two people.
However, I do disagree with your reasoning regarding the cancellation of this concert. It saddens me to think that people of opposing views cannot come together for one night to simply make music. What harm would it have caused? I can only see the beauty of such a gathering taking place. Unfortunately, that was not the outcome.

You state: I don't think it's fair to ask anything more from Armenians. Asking us to forget the Genocide and make nice nice with organizations who actively deny that a Genocide occured is certainly asking too much in my view.

To that I will respond:
I don't think it's fair to ask anything more from Turk's. Asking us to forget false claims of a fabricted genocide and make nice nice with organizations who falsely insist for monetary gains that a Genocide occured is certainly asking too much in my view.

In a time of need, would you refuse help from a Turk, who does not share your point of view?

Ozge Can said...

Dear Kevork,
You've asked twice the content of our website, here is our answer:

Brown TCS does not have a single opinion as a group on the genocide issue. We are not a political lobbying organization. We are a cultural student club. We have members from different nationalities, not just Turks.

Our members all have their own views. We respect each and every one of them. We publish articles from our members if they want. The most problematic article for you happens to be mine, I guess. But even in that article, the point is that there is no concencus among historians/politicians/scholars about "labeling" the atrocities as a genocide. If you think this is denial, well I respect your opinion as well.

On our website we have no "direct" link to any website that either supports or denies the genocide. Third or second order links are not our concern. You can reach to almost ANY website starting from ANY website on the web.

Last note to you Kevork, I grew up listening stories from my Bosnian grandmother and Kurdish grandfather. They were all sad stories. I often wondered why we are not taught anything but "Turkish" history. But you know what, I learned what I needed to learn myself and recovered from my childhood stories. I'm not looking back, I'm seeing a wonderful future for my great country (which has millions of problems, all mine to solve), I know I can only change the future not the past.

If you want to be our neighbors and friends again, you're always welcome.

serhat said...

Kevork,

I realize more and more how we are not in the same page. You guys keep talking about the stories your grandfathers told you. What stories do you think ours told us? Same ones?? Difference is I listen to my grandmother and feel so sory about what a disaster they went through all those years but I don't spend my time to hate those Armenian or Greek mobs. You say that Turks are in denial, ok but how about you? Aren't you in denial on the fact that that was a war, and you guys CHOSE to take part in that war. And there are risks going into a war... If you had won you would be living around Van Lake right now but you lost. I don't approve any kind of murder and I hate "Enver Pasha" just as much, he was an extremist prick. But it doesn't make it a genocide.
Turks were in lots of wars, they lost many of them, they massacred and got massacred. We grew up with horror stories about how Greeks and Armenians stabbed us from behind etc. But the difference is we know well enough to move on.

Anyway, one thing I always ask my Armenian friends: Do you have a concensus in your community on what you really want from Turkey? What is it? soil? money? an apology? leaving Anatolia?

You complained how your questions went unanswered. What about mines on if you guys really care about Armenia or is this genocide thing just a huge industry for diaspora. If you care this much for the people who suffered 100 years ago what about the ones who are still suffering in Armenia? How patriotic to spend millions of dollars to pass meaningless solutions in European and American congresses when your people are among one of the poorest in the world? I'd like to hear some honest answers.

Anonymous said...

The Armenian anti-Turkish hatred industry is a big cottage industry
which has been set up and run by the members of Armenian terrorist
orgabizations such as ASALA (Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation
of Armenia), Tashnak Party, Hinçak Party, JCAG (founded in Beirut in
1975 by Tasnak Party), ARA (founded in France to assassinate Turkish
diplaomats like Dursun Aksoy). a bunch of parasitic Armenians make
their livings by selling anti-Turkish hate propaganda such as books,
magazines, movies, websites, and advertisements, memberships to
anti-Turkish hate organizations and Churches. It is a source of big
money.

Anonymous said...

This is your Armenia


Although there were some improvements in some areas, the government's human rights record remained poor and serious problems remained. The following human rights problems were reported:


abridged rights of citizens to change their government
hazing-related deaths in the military
security force beatings of pretrial detainees
national security service and national police force impunity
arbitrary arrest and detention
poor and unhealthy prison conditions
limited right of citizens' privacy
limited press freedom
self-censorship by journalists
restrictions on religious freedom
violence against women and spousal abuse
trafficking in persons
discrimination against persons with disabilities
societal harassment of homosexuals
reported forced and compulsory labor

serhat said...

Anonymous,

What is your point?

Turkey is not very different on those problems you listed.

Anonymous said...

Serhat,

My point is Armenia faces real problems today. Why is it that the Armenian diaspora rather expend their energy on the past rather then face the problems at hand.

serhat said, Anyway, one thing I always ask my Armenian friends: Do you have a concensus in your community on what you really want from Turkey? What is it? soil? money? an apology? leaving Anatolia?

Anonymous said...

here's your answer Serhat:

Step 6: Turkey investigates the title ownership of each property that was taken from Armenians (and others) without just compensation. Turkey agrees to return those properties to the heirs of the rightful owners, or, as an alternative, if they prefer, they could take compensation, plus interest.
Step 7: Turkey pays compensation for all the lives taken.

Bolsa Hye said...

Serhat,

Your disingenuous pleas to Armenians to help Armenia rather than spend money on "meaningless" resolutions is quite simply at the apex of vile cynicism. If Armenia is poor today, what is it's experienced and modern neighbor to the West doing to help? Is it offering to help it with democratization? Is it offering to help it adjust to capital markets? Is it offering to help it adjust its fledgling agricultural industry? Is it providing it with favorable trade terms so that its economy improves? No, instead it blindly and in a complete knee-jerk fashion closes its borders and supports the Azeris against their forced war with the people of Karabagh? Thank you Turkey, for once again showing us what a great friend and neighbor you can be.

As for the diaspora's efforts in Armenia, you are understandably looking at Armenia and Armenians with blinders that filter out all information that does not relate to the Genocide. You have no idea the efforts Armenians throughout the world have made in improving the lot of the Armenian people. All you know is the efforts we make at Genocide recognition, but because you don't care about any other Armenian issues, that's all you think we do. Today Armenia is ahead of Turkey in virtually every aspect of economic, political, business and education index that is mapped and analyzed by international think tanks. Do you think that would be possible in the face of the dual economic blockade if not for the efforts of the diaspora? In 15 years, Armenia has achieved more than Turkey has achieved in 90 years. It has no natural resources whatsoever, yet it is ahead of Azerbaijan in every meaningful way.

Yes, we spend time and money on educating the world about the plight of our ancestors. But we had stopped there, perhaps Armenia would in fact be one of the poorest nations in the world, as you characterized it (probably just wishful thinking on your part). Maybe we just have more energy than you're used to, but trust me when I say that the diaspora spares no effort and will spare no effort to make sure that it survives and thrives, notwithstanding Turkye's efforts to suffocate it.

Serhat, regarding the actual facts surrounding the Genocide, it's obvious you have not done sufficient research to know what the facts are. You're just parroting the well-known Turkish government line. Something the world has recognized as worthless propoganda, fooling nobody but the domestic population.

Bolsa Hye said...

Cem,

I agree with you. For me there is nothing sadder than the circunstances that presently exist between two peoples who have so much in common culturally and who have lived together for so long. But what do you want from Armenians? I'm sorry but I don't understand how thing could possibly be in court? Our people were forcibly removed from their ancestral homelands where they had lived for nearly 3 millenia. This happened within a span of 3 years. Everything that we had built in those lands over the centuries is crumbling and we can do nothing to stop it. The perpetrators got away with the crime, and their descendants are not the least bit apologetic or sympathetic. Worse yet, even their "educated" ones like you, run around pouring salt in the wound by arguing that Armenians were "back-stabbers" who essentially deserved what they got. This is not a "simple dispute" in which we can "agree to disagree". The vile distortion of history that you promote is extremely hurtful. How can we sit in a room together with people who support your view? If you simply said "we don't know what happened, because we have not researched it" perhaps we could sit in a room together and enjoy music. But your organization has gone beyond that and literally promotes the lies that continue to haunt virtually every diasporan Armenian alive today.

The ball is in your court. You are the educated members of Turkish society. We have waited 90+ years for you to open the books and be objective. When you have done that, maybe it will be time to organize another cultural event.

That's my opinion.

Ruben said...

I really did not want to get further involved into this discussion but I really wanted to comment on it. I want to stress that this is my personal view as an Armenian and has nothing to do with my role as a committed organizer of this event. As long as this does not get inflammatory, and people gain understanding, i think the fact that this discussion is taking place is a positive thing.

"To that I will respond:
I don't think it's fair to ask anything more from Turk's. Asking us to forget false claims of a fabricted genocide and make nice nice with organizations who falsely insist for monetary gains that a Genocide occured is certainly asking too much in my view."

The Genocide issue is inherently not black and white. We can disagree (and eventually constructively dispute) on certain circumstances of the events, but we cannot dispute the fact that Armenians were wiped of their ancestral lands in Anatolia. This IS pretty much basic, universally accepted and recognized truth. Therefore suggesting that "a fabricated genocide did not happen" is incredibly insulting to Armenians as it suggests that the virtual evaporation of the Armenians population from Anatolia is "false" and is being used for someone to make extra cash.

If you are actually suggesting that the killing were not a technically Genocide (which is different), I think those are very very bad words to use to convey your belief. One reason why this issue breeds animosity between today's Armenians and Turks is the words people use. Because the deaths of who perished are still disrespected, people will not just "get over it" after more years have passed. Thus people who provocatively call the Genocide "a lie", suggest conspiracy/profiteering theories, severely cripple efforts of Turks that seek improvement in relations.

I am very upset about the cancellation of the event and like many other local Armenians think the cancellation was outrageous. But despite this, there is consensus in the Armenian community on the Genocide. This is that Turkey has to make a step towards resolving this issue and it is genuinely not doing so (Akhtamar restoration being a good demonstration of this).

Turks that only want/expect to see the Genocide issue dropped do not come even close to understanding what this is about. Their efforts are pouring salt on an open wound, not about the past which is why it's impossible to let go. Those who (whatever they believe) honestly truly want the relations should be aware of how even an innocent slip of the tongue can destroy any such efforts. I think that while Armenians can't justify "fraternizing" with the former, we need to embrace the efforts of the latter group as was the spirit of this event.

Anonymous said...

Today Armenia is ahead of Turkey in virtually every aspect of economic, political, business and education index that is mapped and analyzed by international think tanks.

To say that today Armenia is ahead of Turkey in virtually every aspect is a gross exaggeration.
Let me start with economics, your GDP rank is 129($ 15,990,000,000)
Turkeys GDP rank is 20($ 627,200,000,000) I don't want to insult uour intelligence by explaining to you what GDP is, I'm sure you already know.

Politically, business, and education, Turkey is miles ahead. Please prove me wrong.

Bolsa, when you make false statements like that, you destroy your credibility and strengthen my beliefs.
I suggest that you fill your think-tank with-- say-- goldfish or even a turtle. Apparently your think-tank people are useless.

Bolsa Hye said...

Why don't you break that GDP up into per capita and see what happens to that gap. As for your other blanket statement, I'll give you just a few examples rather than worthless "opinions":

Literacy Rate:
Armenia - 99%
Turkey - 84%

Heritage Foundation Index of Economic Freedom:
Armenia Ranked 32 out of 162 countries
Turkey ranked 83

Grant Thornton's Super Growth Index - Armenia ranked 2nd only after the U.S. (http://www.gti.org/pressroom/articles/pr_03282007.asp)
Turkey ranked 23rd.

These statistics are despite the fact that Armenia has no natural resources, is landlocked with 2 of its 4 neighbors having their borders completely closed, and only being 15 years old.

I'm not telling you these things to thumb my nose at you. Only to show you that your cynical description of Armenia being among the poorest countries in the world and that Armenians don't help their country is flat out wrong!

Anonymous said...

Bolsa Hye said...
Why don't you break that GDP up into per capita and see what happens to that gap

GDP - per capita (PPP) 2007

Armenia-ranked 104
Turkey- ranked 81(winner)
source: http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/gdp_per_capita_2007_1.html

Population below poverty line:
Armenia: 43% and ranked at 46
Turkey:20% rank 101 (Winner)

source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_pov_lin-economy-population-below-poverty-line

Literacy Rate:
Armenia - 99%(Winner)
Turkey - 84%(86.5 and getting better every year)

Givernment Corruption:
Armenia: ranked at 92
Turkey: ranked at 69(Winner)
Sorce: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_cor-government-corruption

Do you truly believe that Armenia is more powerful in the political arena?

Bolsa said:your cynical description of Armenia being among the poorest countries in the world and that Armenians don't help their country is flat out wrong

Is it?

Anonymous said...

Bolsa Hye said...
Being an Armenian from Istanbul who grew up with many Turks in my family's circle of friends and relatives, I would have tended to agree that the benefits of this concert outweigh its detriment. However, as I've gotten older and seen the way the Armenian community is treated and viewed by a large portion of the Turkish community, I have to agree with Kevork that such events are more damaging than good.

Explain yourself.

Anonymous said...

The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) approved a controversial resolution on the Nagorno-Karabakh today. The resolution criticizes ethnic Armenian forces for occupying considerable parts of Azerbaijan's territory years after the end of the separatist conflict. The document also states that the 1988-94 war led to large-scale ethnic expulsions and the creation of mono-ethnic areas that it says "resemble the terrible concept of ethnic cleansing." The vote came amid protests from the Armenian delegation, which described the draft resolution and its appending report as biased in Azerbaijan's favor.

Sean said...

cem said...

"It saddens me to think that people of opposing views cannot come together for one night to simply make music. What harm would it have caused? I can only see the beauty of such a gathering taking place."

cem, it's very possible that the Turkish (and Armenian) organizers of this concert did not have bad intentions and all they wanted to do is "make music", however... within 24 hours of this concert taking place, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Chief of General Staff Gen. Yasar Buyukanit and others would be on the way back to Washington, with pictures of the concert as proof that Armenians and Turks are working together to find a so-called "solution" to the so-called "Armenian problem".

Anonymous said...

bolsa,
heres your government:

On the other hand, if attempts to adjust and adapt to this recent political upheaval fail or if conflict escalates, the contending elites may be even more tempted to resort to the irregularities and fraud that marred previous ballots. And this reveals a deeper deficiency in Armenian politics -- namely that the political system is far too dependent on individuals and lacks the institutions crucial for true democratic resilience and political stability.

read it in full:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/04/4747172f-eee1-4051-b887-66115eae34bb.html

Anonymous said...

Regarding Sean's comment:

"within 24 hours of this concert taking place, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Chief of General Staff Gen. Yasar Buyukanit and others would be on the way back to Washington, with pictures of the concert as proof that Armenians and Turks are working together to find a so-called "solution" to the so-called "Armenian problem". "

If this is what people had in mind when threatening the musicians, it is a terrible public relations policy. This cancellation will definitely get publicity, and surely somebody will use it against the Armenian side. It will have worse effects than a couple of college kids having fun. I thought only Turks were this careless in their actions :)

cem said...

sean said...

cem, it's very possible that the Turkish (and Armenian) organizers of this concert did not have bad intentions and all they wanted to do is "make music"

Actually the Armenian (and Turkish) organizers did have bad intentions, I guess you did not read todays paper and the article about the spaceship full of Elvis impersonators that were going to kidnap all the concert goers and take them to a planet called REALITY.

sean said...

however... within 24 hours of this concert taking place, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Chief of General Staff Gen. Yasar Buyukanit and others would be on the way back to Washington, with pictures of the concert as proof that Armenians and Turks are working together to find a so-called "solution" to the so-called "Armenian problem".

Right on the money, that was the plan sean.

cem said...
sean, there is absolutely nothing you can say that can justify the forced cancellation of a peaceful gathering.

Man was I wrong to state that.
Not one Armenian here posted anything remotely humane, not one reasonable objection was given for the canceled concert.
Just a few insincere words showing remorse followed by ridiculous reasons supporting the cancellation.

It would have been great to hear from the Turkish musicians.

Bolsa Hye said...

Cem

A good reason was given. You just ignored it.

Let's see what would happen if Ahmedinejad asked to organize a joint musical event with a Jewish organization?

Anonymous said...

If you guys believe that a concert is going to spoil a couple of billion dollars worth congress bill, you are either paranoiac or your bill is really meaningless.

serhat said...

Bolsa Hye said:

"Serhat, regarding the actual facts surrounding the Genocide, it's obvious you have not done sufficient research to know what the facts are."

Well, if this is a method, then it is obvious that you can't see the actual facts that I'm seeing even though you have done enough research. How about that.
Here we go again:) Only if the ignorant Turks did enough research, they would see the TRUTH! Has it ever occured to you guys that sometimes people whose brains are not bigger or better than each other read and learn from the exact same sources but just don't agree with one another?

"Vile cynical" as I am(!) I never accused any of my pro-genocide friends of believing what they believe, or not seeing the "facts" that I see because they don't read enough. I don't do it even if they discuss based on the stories their grandparents told them instead of a sheer volume of books, which is the issue most of the time.

I spent a lot of time dealing with my country's bigots and it is sad to see that they have their exact same counterparts. They (mines) ignore the fact that something horrible happened to those people no matter what the reason was and they deserve at least an honest initiative or a condolence whatever it is. And you guys ignore the fact that the Armenians had a great deal of responsibility for the atrocities to take place siding with Turkey's enemies and putting their people in such a danger in the middle of a World War. And this caused a similar trauma and paranoia among Turks against Armenians... Instead you relieve yourselves comparing Turks to Hitler!
This lack of empathy is actually the reason why this issue is not gonna be solved in our and our childrens' life times. If it's ok with you it's more than ok with me.

I sincerely believe that claiming their own land and independence is a nobel right for every people. And it's a matter of choice and dedication to fight for it and die for it. There is always a huge risk. If Kurds wins this war in Turkey and seperates the Southern Turkey as Kurdistan I'll be the first to congratulate them. It's gonna be the gratest victory in their history, just like our independence war in 1919. But if they lose and die for it they shouldn't blame the Turks for being murderers and whatsoever. This is a bloody game. Look at the history of every nation you'll see what I'm talking about.

Anonymous said...

Well said Serhat.

Here's a different perspective posted by Cem, that Armenians choose not to accept.

cem said...
Bolsa Hye said...
Cem,

I don't think Sean is repulsive to rational, sympathetic and kind people who have a conscience.

On the contrary my dear Bolsa Hye, it is my rational, sympathetic and compassionate nature that finds sean so repulsive and ignorant.

I must say bravo to you and all the other Armenian ultra-nationalist who visit this blog, for constantly defending each other. I have yet to see any Armenian criticize another of their ilk for being harsh or indecent.
Good for you guys and girls.
Apparently it is not in the Turkish nature do so. Perhaps that Armenian gang mentality that lead to the murder of my grandfather's younger brother, his wife, two children and sister in law still runs in your psyche.

Kevork said...

I've been reading this blog since the day that the concert was to go on.

My conclusion is that we have come full circle. The last few days on this blog has been filled with a tremendous amount of information and opinion. It was eye opening for me as I have never before had a dialogue with any one of Turkish ethnicity, about the Armenian genocide and related issues.

Some thoughts have come to mind, as a result of reading all this stuff.

Is it me, or are these things always more ACTIVE, during the month of April??. Why wasn't this concert planned for October for example?

The Turks always seem to want to have something to do with the Armenians this time of year. The rest of the year, you don't really hear much going on. I'll bet if someone did a study of when these types of events are topical, they'd find them to be concentrated to coincide with April 24th.

Why is this I wonder?

Another comment I would like to add is as to why someone, ( I believe it's one of the 'anonymous' people) who feel the need to toss into the mix current events in Armenia, and various aspects of the country.

(NOTE TO ANONYMOUS... however many there are.. just make up a name at least.. so it's easier to follow who says what will ya)

That is not the topic. The topic is/was the concept of Armenians joining with the Turks to have a concert, and the Armenians' reluctance to do so, based on, and reconfirmed herein, on this "dia-blog', that they would be doing so with known and vocal genocide deniers.

This thread proves a few things. That both Armenians and Turks have some bright minds. People who are dedicated to their cause.

It also proves that no matter what, no matter how logical and how even tempered and 'friendly' the conversations seem to go, the bottom line is always the same. Both sides diametrically opposed.

They say that there are authors, professors, historians and politicians who question and refute 'history' and deny the Genocide took place. I wonder how many of those people are actually coming up with those thoughts on their own and are not compensated by the Turkish government.

To think that professors in our colleges and universities, who are serving in chairs sponsored by the Turkish government, would NOT be commissioned to promote the agenda of the very hand that feeds them, would be extremely naive.

So to continually lean on comments and theories that these "paid historians" is ridiculous.

It's like a huge game of 'he said she said'. It is not productive.

When the concert first got canceled, and there were comments thanking the supporters etc., I kinda felt bad that it was. But upon further looking into this subject, and witnessing this exchange of thoughts and ideas, I say that there is far more work to do between the Armenian and Turkish communities, before such an event would successfully take place.

To placate me by saying how everyone in the group has different opinions and they are all respected, is a bunch of bologna. First of all, show me a Turkish member of the Brown Cultural Society who does NOT deny this genocide. Show me a member of this group, who accepts that this happened, and doesn't rub salt in the wound, buy continual denial.

Someone mentioned the Turkish musicians. Yes.. I would like to hear from them too. From what I understand, is that at least one of them, DOES accept that the Armenian genocide took place.

As I stated earlier, I am impressed with the quality of people in this discussion. It just seems like such a waste to see all this talent with so much potential, but yet, the wheels just keep going round and round with the cart not moving forward.


Respectfully,

Kevork

Anonymous said...

Kevork said......

So to continually lean on comments and theories that these "paid historians" is ridiculous.

To placate me by saying how everyone in the group has different opinions and they are all respected, is a bunch of bologna.

First of all, show me a Turkish member of the Brown Cultural Society who does NOT deny this genocide. Show me a member of this group, who accepts that this happened, and doesn't rub salt in the wound, buy continual denial.

-----From what I understand, is that at least one of them, DOES accept that the Armenian genocide took place.

I'm not here to PLACATE you Kevork, I'm here to observe you IMPLICATE yourself. Keep up the good work. You say that you live in RI, so why not find that Turkish student and discuss the Genocide over a kebab at East Side Pockets.

Kevork said...

Ozge,

Wanna meet me for a kebab at East Side Pockets?

Kevork

Ozge Can said...

Kevork, this is so funny I can't help.. Think about our wedding ok (I'm going a bit fast, I know..:), Armenians sitting next to Turks, playing duduk and dumbek and eating leblebi.. Of course if its not cancelled due to "outside pressure" that this is a fake wedding, another Turkish trap to the Armenian community. Or you'll put the condition that every single Turk attending the wedding will swear to God that they did not even think about denying the genocide even for a minute in their lives, how could you dance with them otherwise right??.. I really don't see a future between us Kevork, you're putting your people always before me, how can you do this to me Kevork!!??

See.. Even if I wasn't married (yeah, how could you know..) and even if I did accept the genocide (must be disappointing for you.. but I "deny the label" genocide although I'm terribly sorry about the killings and deaths of innocent people, and I think Turkey should do something to ease the pain and anger on Armenian side.. well at this point you can do all sorts of things, like questioning my intellect or level of knowledge, or accuse me of being paid by the government or at least brainwashed through my childhood, whatever makes you happy..:) we were hopeless my friend.. Thanks though, I'm really flattered.

On the other hand, if I got the whole thing wrong, and this is just a dinner to talk about stuff, well sure, then my husband and I would be thrilled to eat kebap with you.. Don't worry he is not like other Turks, he won't make this misunderstanding an issue..

Bolsa Hye said...

What blogs like this suggest is that there is no point in waiting for Turks to do the right thing. When even the hyper-educated ones continue to deny, what can we expect from the other 95% of the population?

The following facts are not in dispute by anyone, not even deniers, yet even students attending Ivy League schools refuse to piece together the implication:

1. Until 1915, Anatolia/Asia Minor was the home of more than half the world's Armenian population who had lived on those lands for not just a few generations, but more than 2 1/2 millenia.

2. By 1923, there were almost no Armenians at all left in Anatolia, and virtually the only Armenians left living within the new Republic of Turkey were about 100,000 in Istanbul.

3. The Young Turks ordered the deportations, not just of revolutionary or rebellious Armenians, but all Armenians including women, children and elderly, and not just Armenians from the "Russian front" but from all 4 corners of Anatolia.

4. The Young Turks first eliminated most of the Armenian men by putting them in labor battalions and then killing those ones who survived the labor battalions or just killing them right away. Thus, most of the men were eliminated even before the deportations.

5. The "deportees" were deported mostly on foot for hundreds of miles with little food, water or shelter, through circuitous routes that made no sense unless the intent was exhausting them to death.

6. These people were deported to locations in the desserts of present-day Syria where there was nothing to sustain life, and no provisions had been made to sustain their life once they got there (no food, no clean water, no shelter, no clothing).

Full stop.

I believe that's all you need to know in order to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that the Young Turks' knew or should have known that their actions would lead to the extermination of the Armenian population of Anatolia. Either that, or you have to conclude that the Young Turk leaders, many of whom became the founders of the Republic of Turkey, were so utterly stupid and incompetent that they could not foresee that their actions would lead to the results that we see in 1923, the elimination of virtually the entire Armenian population of Anatolia. Surely every Brown student has the capability to see these facts for what they are and what they mean, even if they were raised on a healthy diet of ignorance.

serhat said...

Kevork,

You are making such a big mass just when I'm so ready to respect your intelligence and view or whatever it is in spite of the huge difference of opinion between us. Is it really necessary going into this stupid "your historians are being paid by your government" comment. I mean, really, when you turn around and read it back does it seem like a smart argument to you. I don't necessarily cheat with the dices every time I beat you in backgammon, you know, sometimes I play better and maybe I'm just luckier. It seems like the tendency to the conspiracy theories is one of the things we have in common. You could have at least saved yourself the time and answered the very ovbious counter question to this argument: "How about your historians" It's so easy to say that they are probably being paid by both your government and diaspora. See it's easy...

And why do we have to show you a member of our society who does accept the genocide? We are not here to be questioned or prove something, just same as your not being here for this. You guys really need to build some dialogue with Turkish community, only then you'll see that we have a lot of people with very different and opposing opinions here. We have historians who recognize the events as genocide for god's sake. (probably under Armenian payroll;))
What you don't see is that Turks are not as attached to this issue as you are. Even if Turkey has to accept it someday it's not gonna make the same effect in our lives as it will in yours. You would probably announce that day the most important day in your history, but we would just read it in the paper disguss it with each other for a couple of hours and then jump to the discussion on the soccer game of the day in Turkey. I'm not denying that there are lots of Turkish people dealing with the issue but comparing the percentages...

By the way I'd like to add one more thing. I've just noticed that I totally agree with a lot of points that Armenian friends have been making here. There are so many messages and hard to catch up with everything. Ruben's post for example, I agree that the people who died in 1915 have not been shown the respect they deserve. Civilian causalities, no matter what, should always be remembered with respect. This is one of the Turkey's disgraceful manners on this issue.

Anyway, oh, what's with the match making going on here. Where are your cuties? Why do we have to talk to some ugly guy named Kevork:) I wanna get to discuss this with a cute Armenian girl over a dinner too:)

serhat said...

Bolsa Hye,

You know what I've had enough of you. Nobody has to tolerate your stupid manner and insults here.
We weren't raised in a "healty diet of ignorance". Even the most idiotic bigot in my society back in Turkey was just as smart as you.

Blogs like this also proves that there is no point in trying to be nice and being careful pickig your words not to hurt people when those people are nothing but hate filled morons, see I can do that too, and I gotta admit it's kind of relieving.

Bolsa Hye said
"What blogs like this suggest is that there is no point in waiting for Turks to do the right thing."

Only the bigots think that they have the ultimate truth that the right thing is whatever they say or do or reach. This has really nothing to do with your being Armenian or sth. We have the exact same ones in Turkey.

Bolsa Hye said...

No need to be a prick Serhat. When I referenced the "ignorance" I wasn't referring specifically to one ethinicity or another. I was referring to everyone who is ignorant about this topic. Before college, I was also raised on a healthy dose of ignorance as it relates to this issue, and I am quite certain that most people are the same. You shouldn't take things so personally, unless you're doing it to avoid the facts I set forth.

Broken Hearted Kevork said...

Ozge,

Ah this is amazing as I too have thought of our wedding...actually.. I thought of turning it into a movie .. typical boy meets girl theme, Armenian/Turkish style.

So much for THAT screenplay.

I shall have to go on with my life, with only the image of you and I, and the mystery of what could have been.

I had a feeling you were married... for some reason, I thought you were married to Serhat, but now he wants me to bring some cute Armenian girls to have kebab with him, so I'm not quite sure.

As for questioning your intellect or level of knowledge, I would never do that.

Stay well my delicate flower

Kevork

Kevork said...

Serhat,

I will respond to your post and try to clarify what my points were.  I'm so excited that you are almost ready to respect my intelligence. 4 years of private school and 4 years of college have finally started to pay off. ;-)

Mind you, I have said many things in my posts, but it always seems as if one item is singled out and commented on by you or anonymous for example. Am I to surmise that everything ELSE I've said is in accord with your viewpoints and opinions?

My comment about the historians being on the Turkish payroll.....

As I mentioned earlier on, I have amassed a decent size collection of old books from the late 19th century and early 20th.  These books, which were not written by Armenians, document the atrocities committed against the Armenians at the hands of the Turks.  Likewise, the plethora of news paper articles which document the same.  What I was referring to are some of the books that are out there, written by Turks or by members of academia on behalf of the Turks.  You can't deny that some of those professors that are often quoted in these 'debates' are in chairs at universities which are sponsored by the Turkish government.

It is of these who I refer.

This rhetoric that I've heard on this blog, that there is no consensus amongst historians, scholars and the like, is not true.  If it were not  largely these select historians and scholars who oppose the genocide being the very ones that the Turks have employed to 'assist' in this argument, then there is a consensus of the rest of the worldly scholars and historians.

We as Armenians nor the collective 'voice of the Diaspora' has the need to have 'paid' historians or academics speak out on behalf of our cause, because there is plenty of well documented existing historical testimony which concur that the Armenians were the  targets of a genocide perpetrated by the young Turks.

When I asked about showing me a member of the TCS who accepts that genocide did take place......
I asked that because I was told by a member of the TCS that its' membership has varying opinions.  My point was to say.... ok.. if you all have different or varying opinions, show me ONE member who says that the atrocities WERE genocide.   My guess is that even though the group has 'varying' opinions, that they are all variations on the theme that there was no genocide. If I'm wrong, please speak up.

I am well aware that there are Turks out there who subscribe to the same history that we Armenians believe, I even mentioned some of them in my previous posts. 

The concern here is would YOU want to 'socialize' with  people or a group of people who have historically refuted such significant parts of your "peoples' history.  Now I know what you're saying..... and there's a HUGE difference.  In as much as the genocide was committed against the Armenians, thus the Armenians being the victims of these events, the implication for the "TURK" to not want to associate with the "people' who refute what they're story is, is very different.  The perpetrator of a crime has a very different view on this than the victim.    For example, do you think a rapist or someone who assaulted a woman gets nervous and uneasy upon seeing his victim at court?...  Wouldn't you agree that the victim would be very uncomfortable to have to see her attacker again, while the perpetrator, might actually get a 'high' from seeing his victim squirm at his very sight?


  This is my point. It's DIFFERENT for the Turks, and as such, the Turks take this  from a totally different perspective.

The perspectives of the guilty parties are often different from the perspectives of the victims, no matter what you call the crime.

This leads into your comment about Turks not being as "attached to the issue" as we Armenians are.  One would think that the Turks wouldn't be as attached to the issue, because they were not victimised and denied justice for over 90 years as have been the Armenians.   So that while your comment may have some truths to it,  it is continually challenged by things like how every time the Armenians would write a letter to the editor of the Providence Journal about the genocide, the next day some Turk from Maryland or somewhere, would have a rebuttal printed in the paper.  If the Turks are not as attached to the issue, why does that happen? 

If the Turks are not as attached to the issue, then why are the Turks demonstrating in NYC in two weeks? Why did they do their protest in Washington on the occasion of the 90 th anniversary??

If the Turks are not as attached to the issue, why does the Turkish government continally make threats to other countries vis a vis genocide recognition? ( Like what is happening with France now and the gas pipeline)

As much as you feel the Armenians are "attached to the issue", well then equally so are the Turks attached to denying the issue . It is like in physics, every action, has an equal and opposite reaction.

The victimization of the Armenians is perpetuated, and as such, so is the "attachment to the issue" by the Turks.


Ozge said

" I'm terribly sorry about the killings and deaths of innocent people, and I think Turkey should do something to ease the pain and anger on Armenian side.. "

So to that I say, then why hasn't it happened? What do you think that Turkey should do to 'ease the pain and anger on the Armenian side"?


Serhat.. you said

"We have historians who recognize the events as genocide for god's sake. (probably under Armenian payroll;))"

So.. in reply, I say, well why don't YOU then? What is making it different for those historians of Turkish origin like Pamuk and Akcam? Do you think they were 'paid' by Armenians? Why do you think they have come to the conclusions that they have?

As has been mentioned among many of these posts that Turkey has along way to go and many problems. ( I believe Ozge said they were all hers to solve :-), do you realize the effort, energy, money and though processes that the "DENIAL" continues to consume? Ever wonder what Turkey might be like if they did admit their guilt on the national level, Armenia was apologized to and compensated for her losses, the borders were reopened, and together Armenia and Turkey could most likely enjoy unprecedented tourism and economic growth.

Anyway, as to the 'match making' .. I believe that is officially off, as I am busy tending to a broken heart upon learning of Ozge's marital status.

But I'll keep you in mind Serhat.

susan said...

Anyway, as to the 'match making' .. I believe that is officially off, as I am busy tending to a broken heart upon learning of Ozge's marital status.

Are all Armenians this disgusting?

serhat said...

Susan,

There is a big misunderstanding. It has nothing to do with all Armenians. It's just Kevork who is disgusting:))

Ok, sorry, bad joke:)

But there is really a misunderstanding. Aside from the huge mistake of falling in love with the first Turkish girl he has seen, who is in denial, and who is, ok let's face it, my wife:) I don't think Kevork meant any harm. The very last comment was a humorous thing. Please easy on him.

Kevork,

Some of your arguments need to be replied. I have a lot to do tonight but I won't be long.

Just one thing. Pamuk is not an historian. In his 30 years of writing career he made two sentences on Armenian and Kurd issues, and that was just before the Nobel prize announcement. He was told by his consultants that he seriously lacked the "outfit of intellectual sensitivity". So I wouldn't count on him too much. Right after he won the prize this year he refused to comment on neither one of the issues very sharply. And Taner Akcam... I'll he is a long story, I'll give you an article about him. These two names are not the ones you guys should use in discussions against us. There are more respectful "real" historians who can talk for you on this.

Anyway we'll talk.

kevork said...

Susan said:

Are all Armenians this disgusting?

Kevork responds:

Susan,

The comments that prompted you to refer to me as "disgusting', were a bit of 'comic relief' which I was sharing with some Turkish contributors to this blog.

As a result of "open dialogue" with these folks, humorous elements were injected within our mutual messages.


Serhat,

Thanks for your reply.

Bolsa Hye said...

Serhat, regarding Taner Akcam, I hope you don't waste your time by posting some Turkish newspaper article that tags him as a "terrorist". We already know who Taner Akcam is, and whether or not he is intellectually and academically qualified to write the historiography of the Armenian Genocide. "Terrorist" in Turkey sometimes means "human rights activist" in the rest of the world. That is certainly true of Taner Akcam, who was welcomed into Germany as a political refugee from Turkey.

As for Orhan Pamuk, he is the first awardee of the Nobel Prize for Literature from Turkey, and the Turkish nation has shunned him simply because he expressed his view on the Armenian "deaths" (he didn't even say the word Genocide) in an interview. Is this rational? Is this a good reason to turn a hero into a zero over night?

mc2 said...

Bolsa hye said...

"Terrorist" in Turkey sometimes means "human rights activist" in the rest of the world.

Bolsa, you really are a shameless pathetic idiot. How do you sleep at night knowing that?

How do you sleep at night knowing that your ancestors treacherous greed was the cause of Turkish and Armenian lives?

How do you sleep at night knowing that here in California, your people are judged as worthless citizens, who collect welfare and play the system?

kevork said...

Armenia should "reverse its own authoritarian course, allow free and fair elections and respect human rights."

Kevork said...

Someone's being funny... I did NOT post the post time stamped 6:52 pm today.

I thought this would be a mature forum, and for the most part it is, however, some people like to be instigators.

kevork said...

Kevork said...
Someone's being funny... I did NOT post the post time stamped 7:23 pm today.

I thought this would be a mature forum, and for the most part it is, however, some people like to be instigators.

Ozge Can said...

I don't understand why everyone is so full of anger.. why trash talk people??

Ozge Can said...

Dear Bolsa,
In response to your 7 items listed before..

Labeling those events as a genocide has some "serious" reparations on Turkey. So it is simply not a matter of "implication". This is an issue of law basically, and there has to be unquestionable serious "evidence" that Ottoman government "decided to systematically exterminate Armenians". If Armenians have this evidence, they should please take the issue to an international court. Afterall, Turkey signed the international genocide law.

On the other hand, one can simply reject the label knowing that if there "was" serious evidence, when all the Ottoman archive was at the hands of English diplomats at the end of World War I (Ottomans had terribly lost the war, remember?) it would be found and used against Turkey. (Don't you think that they would eat Turkey alive if they had caught something as obvious as you're claiming..?)

As for the unquestionable fact of Armenians suffering greatly at the end of the war and till today. Well Turkey should do something about it. What that should be is a matter of discussion among us as well. The key here is the "dialogue" I believe, this should be a joint effort towards a solution. Otherwise, Akthamar happens..

Murat Altinbasak said...

Hear, Hear! Ozge this blog needs some contributors besides myself. (lately I feel like a guest on my own site- which is a very good thing) Will you or Serhat consider writing a weekly article for Amerikan Turk? Either that or let me help set you guys up with a blog of your own. I am certain that it will be very popular. Either way, the blogging world will appreciate it.
As for all of you Armenian deadbeats (tongue firmly planted in cheek) I am eternally grateful for all of the attention and participation which you have given to my humble blog. There's a lot of credit due to Bolsa, Kevork, Sean, Ruben, all the anonymice, et al. I sincerely appreciate the good manners, the restraint, the well crafted and respectful presentations of ideas, positions and beliefs. Lots of time and effort have gone into this ongoing dialogue, and this post (more specifically, it's comments) is rated as among the top five of all time at Amerikan Turk. When I get around to listing the top posts in the sidebar one day, this will be among them for sure.

Bolsa Hye said...

Kevork, although you did not write the following statement, I have to say that I cannot disagree with it. It's definitely a fair statement, whoever wrote it!

Armenia should "reverse its own authoritarian course, allow free and fair elections and respect human rights."

Bolsa Hye said...

Ozge,

Thanks for your calm response. First, let me start out by asking if there is anything within those 6 points I made that you believe are not beyond reasonable doubt.

serhat said...

Kevork and Bolsa,

Wow, there is a lot to say.

1- Bolsa, I'm well aware of the fact that someone's terrorist is other's freedom fighter. I myself faced the problem more than one occasion. But the information missing in your argument is that this is not the case only for Turkey. Leaders of 9/11 are considered heroes in quite a big part of the world. Was the person who shot Talat on the head a terrorist or a noble fighter? Depends on whom you ask. Same thing applies for PKK. ASALA, ETA, Che, Chavez... You can make a list full of pages.

On Akcam and Pamuk very quick.

2- No I'm not gonna send you any crap from a Turkish Newspaper about Akcam. I would be making quite a big fool of myself. First of all I promise you my take on Akcam and Pamuk and likes is not based on their views on Armenian issue. Taner Akcam was a member of the socialist party that I'm a member of right now (Halil Berktay was too by the way), and the article was written by one of his former "comrads". I don't have a digital copy. Anyway, It's pointless ragging on this. Post coup Turkish intellectuals including the ones in my family who are full of anger and frustration against State that they are so ready to connect any problem in any corner of the earth to Turkish nationalism and Kemalizm. This is a subject that requires a whole another blog. He is good as long as you can use him. Really, no problem, go for it:)

3- Pamuk:) Oh Pamuk... He is a jerk with an aptitude and talent for writing. He is not an historian he is a novelist. Let me tell you a story about him. You know he was here about two months ago. He had just made those two famous sentences about Armenians and Kurds and won the prize. Everybody here couldn't wait for him to point to the same issues as a Nobel winner intellectual. Well, Ozge asked him after his interview in Brown that if he wanted to say something on genocide issue or Kurds being killed in Turkey. Answer: "I'd like to pull myself out of this question":) There are a lot to say about him. He is a big time billionaire who doesn't give a shit about anything but himself. He said what he had to say and got what he wanted. And I promise, he is not gonna get any closer to any social problem more than 500 feet. Please don't degrade yourself calling him hero.

4- Question: If there are really respectable Turkish historians who recognize it as genocide why wouldn't I believe the same thing?

There are several answers to this

-For starters, there are just as many on the other side of the divide. It's just petty to say that the second group is under Turkish payroll. But the bottom line is that I don't need any historian or politician to tell me what to believe how to think. Erdogan Aydin, a socialist Turkish historian who is not the biggest fan of Turkish State, says that both writing and reading history is a matter of choice. And it really is. You can write totally opposing histories looking at the same events from different perspectives. Remember, your fighter, my terrorist. And none of these should necessarily be right or wrong. Ultimate decision belongs to the reader and this decision will be shaped by their intelligence, upbringing, degree of religiousness, stories drilled into their heads when 5 etc. And guess what, historians make their choices too. A utilitarian, a determinist, an arch liberal, a racist, or someone raised by being beaten, they will probably examine the same event from the same documents but their ultimate definitions will not be the same. I admire Chomsky, but there are issues I don't agree even with him down the road. So please stop saying that Pamuk says this Akcam says that, McCarty believes in this others believe in that. I don't even give a shit what Mohammed says.

5- Genocide is a human-made word and you can lump 50 more (or less) historical events into it by changing the definition. That was the whole point Hrant was trying to explain. Focusing on one word to chase some tangible benefits is dragging people farther from seeing the real suffering Armenians have, making harder for them to share the real essance of this. This is the whole confusion about "denial". I'm not in denial. How can anyone deny that 500 to 1.5 million people vanished? I mean, what am I gonna suggest? They are still living in a secret village in Central Anatolia? I don't deny the 1915 events (this may be an answer to Bolsa's 6 arguments) I just refuse to call it genocide. And if you are right why would what I think matter? They should just put the definition and events together, if it fits the verdict will be up for Turkey. Denial means to refuse the fact. Like you're gonna die in a month of a lung cancer but you pretend it's not gonna happen. So your point that I'm in denial lies behind the assumption that the genocide is an ultimate truth. How can a human-made definition be an ultimate truth? If it is where are those human rights champions who are responsible for 75 millions deaths in two world wars, who killed 1.5 million Algerians, who killed 5 million in Congo, killed 600,000 in Iraq in three years, who dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians in Japan? How about a little consistency, a little honesty.

7- So guys, your trying to convince Turks based on what Pamuk says is just the same as your trying to push Turkey to accept it based on France legislations. The day I see you siding with Algerians against France, with people of Congo against Belgium, with Iraqis against America, and with whole Africa suffered from colonization against France Italy Spain England etc, I promise I'll accept any definition you offer for genocide and get behind this struggle with you.

Sorry, it was a little long I think I'll take a break. Murat kicked us out anyway:)

serhat said...

I skipped "6" by the way, You can put it anywhere between 5 and 7:)

Murat Altinbasak said...

"Sorry, it was a little long I think I'll take a break. Murat kicked us out anyway:)"

Don't be ridiculous. I'm practically begging you guys to help me add content to this site!

Murat Altinbasak said...

In fact, I should change the name of this blog to "Amerikan Turks" and assemble a team of core contributors, and even a rotation of guest contributors. I've had my fill of being a self-centered prick for the past two years, thank you. Let's evolve.