America's #1 Balance Bike Destination

America's #1 Balance Bike Destination
America's #1 Balance Bike Destination

20 August 2008

Ramazan Sahin: A vexing image pollutes his gold medal

This was not necessary. -AT
Ramazan Sahin, left, of Turkey, prays after beating Andriy Stadnik of Ukraine, right, in the gold medal match of 66 kilogram category of men's freestyle wrestling competition of the Beijing 2008 Olympics in Beijing, Wednesday, Aug. 20, 2008.


Anonymous said...

I agree with you in theory.

But he was not praying. He was doing the symbolic gesture for Muslims thanking God as would a Christian do when he does the sign of the cross after a win.

Let's get used to being tolerant of the close encounters of even the religious kind.

rokkafellah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rokkafellah said...

I don't think that it's a big deal for him to bow like that. It's his belief and I don't think he plotting to take down the government

nhrider said...

I don't pretend to know anything about Islam, but I agree with Metin. Although I consider myself sceptcal of organized religions, I think we must accept and respect others faith.

sergen said...

did we ever questioned the people who were doing the christian cross or other things? when the man does this movement, does it harm anybody?

I agree with my friends, respect to every faith, he can show his thankful mood in any way he likes, just like others.

Serdar Kaya said...

Too bad he forgot to ask Murat before doing this.

Murat Altinbasak said...

Yeah let's also be tolerant of those who puke at the sight of such bullshit.
He can stand on his head and spit peas if he wants. I am not required to like it. It's his prerogative I agree- but I think he dishonors the Turkish uniform and the flag that it bears. This is not a religious ceremony- it's the Olympics.. Save it for the locker room.. unless of course, you are interested in making some kind of public statement with your actions out in the open. A classic case of "I'm more proud of being Muslim than of being Turkish".
Don't mind me- I'm off my rocker.
And yes- thanking G-d for your achievements is also bullshit. You work your ass off to get better, faster, stronger- G-d has nothing to do with it, just as he has nothing to do with it when pit bulls rip the limbs off of 18 month old babies. Pathetic.

rokkafellah said...

Well, Murat that's his way of being Turkish.

Gulay said...

and its bullshit.

Even of there is a god you think he cares about the Olympics and before you criticize me I also hate all the crossing and eyes closed crap alot of the US, Jamaican and other christian etc. athletes indulge in.

As Murat says keep it in the locker room, if people cannot complain about Tibet then they should also keep their religion to themselves whoever they are

Anonymous said...

How about using the middle finger pointed at the subjective judging when we lose... should that be allowed?

What about allowing the singing and the lip-synched mumbling of the national anthems that contain the word God?

Or should we have 'religious' Olympics to see who can hold the most number of holy books in one hand longest, standing on one leg, while gregorian chants by Enigma is blaring from the loud speakers

Gulay said...


excellent ideas!

Serdar Kaya said...

Murat said: " A classic case of "I'm more proud of being Muslim than of being Turkish". "

I don't think this is the case here. It doesn't follow; and you don't know that. Pretty much like it's not saying "I'm more proud of being a Christian than of being American" when an American athlete makes the sign of the cross.

But let's assume for a second that he really is "more proud of being a Muslim than of being Turkish." What's wrong with that? We all have different priorities and identities in life. Personally, "being Turkish" is not all that important to me either. Then who are you to judge me if I prefer to identify myself by other means? Just where do you get that right? These two are the questions I would expect you to answer.

Gulay said: "I also hate all the crossing and eyes closed crap alot of the US, Jamaican and other christian etc. athletes indulge in."

I always found it interesting how it is always very easy for the Turkish people to say "I hate this, I hate that, and I also hate all of that." Why is it too difficult for these people to accept the fact that people do not have to adjust themselves to the liking of the average Turkish person on the street?

On one hand, we have athletes who, in different fashions, give thanks to the deity they believe in. And on the other, we have bunch of self-righteous Turkish people who have difficulty in embracing diversity and thus keep hating every one who "deviates" from their weird criteria.

Ertan said...

with those comments Serdar, I bow down to you.

I put Islam before country and Im not a practicing Muslim either.

Murat Altinbasak said...

Serdar.. your panties are all bunched up.. over nothing.. and Ertan as long as you're down there.. bowing..
Seriously, when did being a self-hating Turk become so stylish? I didn't get the memo.

rokkafellah said...

Self-hating Turk, Murat? What planet are you on?

Gulay said...

serdar, before you categorize me in your general off hand way, I dislike all religion and all outward shows of it and especially all the public demonstration of so called belief. And any Turkish person who claims to be a muslim before a Turk obviously has no need for a brain or a passport and should therefore not be representing a country at the Olympics, being a muslim or any religion if you are so weak minded as to choose to believe that stuff is a personal choice, being Turkish is not and you should be ashamed of yourselves. I am so very annoyed that the Turkish authorities have decided that my daughter should be a muslim even though her father is not turkish and not a muslim.

Serdar Kaya said...


If you are so inclined to bowing in front of a human being, then there's a very good chance that you're still under the influence of the Turkish official ideology. Not good.


I asked you two simple questions, and you answered neither of them.

Again: it should be up to the people to choose their identities, whatever they may happen to be. Personally, I reject all forms of nationalism, mild or extremist, since I prefer to abide by objective values. "Turkish" or "Turkishness" is not an objective value. I also believe that the world would be a much nicer place if people get rid of such assimilative values, and appreciate universal ones.

Your response to my stance is that I am a "self-hating Turk!"

I have no idea on what premise you based that wierd conclusion of yours. It is a meaningless label, and thus does not deserve an answer.


What I have expressed earlier has nothing to do with what the Turkish state may have done to you or to your daughter. If such a thing really happened though, shame on them. But I have no idea why you brought this up.

As for your comments:

You are not in a position to deter people from expressing what they want to express - be it religious, non-religious or anti-religious. You have no such right. The fact that the person in question is wearing a national uniform does not change that either.

Moreover, although you may be disliking things that have to do with religion, you are not in a position to decide which Turkish citizens are entitled to carry the Turkish passport, and which are not. That is still the case even if they have other thoughts about being Turkish.

You are also not in a position to decide which citizens are eligible to represent the country, and which are not. Representing the country does not necessarily mean that you have to (1) forget who you are, (2) ignore your feelings, and (3) try to turn yourself into a rigid character which the state has molded for you to conform to - unless the country in question is a totalitarian one. That sounds pretty much like China, which also happens to ban YouTube.

Regardless of how they define themselves, the people you despise are all Turkish citizens, and unless they want out themselves, you have no right deprive them of any of their natural rights.

Although I have a feeling that you will have difficulty in appreciating this, I will still say it: You are not "more equal" than anybody else, so please try to learn to show some respect. Res Publica means "public matter," which means that you and your likes do not own the republic. Grow up. Those days are long gone.

Ertan said...

well by "bowing down" i didn't mean it literally..

It was in context of the post.

how about a double thumbs up??? But isn't the thumbs up showing support to a political party??? One cannot give out a compliment without being shat on... O deary Me

I don't hate myself one bit. I am of Turkish heritage, yes. But born, bred and taught Australian values. If thats "self hating" ill wear that pin on my lapel.

If your so turkish, why are you living in The States and not in The MotherLand? Dont bring out the employment card.

I like Pepsi you might like coke. Im not a heathen for liking Pepsi am i.

A.A.A said...

Such a sad blog entry. What defines the "honoring the flag" anyway?. He got the gold with hard work and dedication while bearing the national flag. That's more than enough. I would care less if he sacrifice a chicken and dedicate it to Obatala. Maybe it is time for some to take their head out from the US sand and visit a small Anatolian town.

M.D.A said...

Ahh.. That was some young Americo-Turks soo ashamed of their own people.

So sorry that the guy did not honor your etiquette of being Turkish.

Murat Altinbasak said...

All I said originally is "This was not necessary".. and at the time, before the 'nationalist' issues came to the surface, what I meant is that G-d (if he exists) deserves NO credit for our physical accomplishments, nor does He give a squirt of piss about Olympics, IMHO. Do we thank Him when our fathers waste away to nothing because of lung cancer?
Back to the 'flag' side of things- Yes he does indeed "pollute" his gold medal by prostratig himself in front of the world. He will forever be known as the winning wrestler who went out of his way to show his true colors. As I've said before, I'm not required to like it, and I'm not required to be silent about it either. Certainly, if I was a 'devout Muslim', his actions would not bother me in the least. I recognize this, do you?
What if.. he had a small Ataturk trinket hanging from a chain around his neck, and he took it out and kissed it in front of the world after winning his gold medal match? You guys might have blown a gasket from such an act as well, and you probably would have stayed silent about it too- what's there to gain from showing dis-taste for love of your country? Pffffft!

A.A.A said...

Problem is, Murat; Don't get me wrong but from what i read, people you look down on have a more open minded view than you have.
i would not give a damn if he caries a Ataturk statue on his back wherever he goes. did he do the wrestling well? yes.. did he insult anything? no. rest only concerns him. so, i strongly disagree with you, and surprised with the things you said.

Anonymous said...

After reading all the comments, and taking into consideration the dismal performance Turkey showed at the Olympics, I don't really mind if a gold medal winner decided to actually pray after a match. More power to him.

I'd put him on the cover of Wheaties.

M.D.A said...

Murat: Well, a trinket on a chain on a wrestler, I would think that would be very kitsch but would not mind, after all he got the gold medal (He would have two medallions wohoo!).. You are definitely making false assumptions about people.

Do not have time to reiterate some nice points made by other guys here.

zencycle said...

I really have to align with murat here. The gesticulation by athletes representing their country as deference to their personal god is wholly out of place in such situations.

If we are not allowed to blame god for a realtive who dies a slow painful death from disease, then we cannot thank god for 'allowing' us to excel in our chosen vocation.

Certainly, adherence to some religious faith may give much needed emotional support for those who need some sort of focus or crutch, and that emotional stability may even enhance an athletes regimen. But the accomplishment was made _by_ the athlete with the support of his trainers and staff. This alleged god had nothing to do with it.

Anonymous said...

i thank God everyday that Al Gore created the Internet so that we can all have blogs and/or leave comments on others'...

i even thank God that the Olympics are finally over!


Murat Altinbasak said...

You know Metin, it's funny.. I've read some comments on sites that linked to this entry and there is some kind of delusional thinking that the addition of comments to my original blog post, somehow constitutes a "debate". It's not a debate. We share our thoughts, ideas and beliefs with eachother and hopefully we all gain a better understanding of other perspectives. I know that I have! Thank you all. But I stand pat on my original position. If my goal was to indoctrinate people to agree with my point of view, I've clearly failed, but that's fine and dandy because that's not why I contribute to this site. The intent of most of my entries is "hey look at this, here's my take on it".
I see the words 'totalitarian' and "open mindedness' (or the reverse) being splashed around by people who are fearful of taking a fucking position and sticking to it. Is it possible to have a spine AND be open-minded? Apparently not.

Gulay said...


I don't care for your self serving masturbation in public about what I am not and am able to decide on. To me any piece of crap who does this does not represent the Turkey I want. That's my opinion and I have the right to state that. Your other comments just show you to be a Neanderthal turkish male who wants to tell a poor woman to get back in bed cook dinner and have babies. Well fuck you.

Murat Altinbasak said...

SK: "Personally, "being Turkish" is not all that important to me either. Then who are you to judge me if I prefer to identify myself by other means? Just where do you get that right? These two are the questions I would expect you to answer."

Murat: Personally, that first sentence comes as no surprise, SK.

Here are your answers:
I really don't care how you identify yourself, but last I checked I have every right to judge anything and everything that interests me. Who has given you or others the right to stop me from expressing whether I dislike something about you or a wrestler or SUVs or Starbucks Coffee or whatever else?

Yes you need a break from blogging.

And what you have been astonishingly ignorant of, Serdar, is that a recent blog entry preceding this one was about a 3 year old child being cooked to death inside of an SUV, and about my doubt in the existence of god, and tied to the recent loss of my father to cancer who took his last breath while he was in my arms.. Look at all of it in context and maybe you will have more empathy.. instead of pigeon-holing and bird-dogging me as one of the reasons you've lost faith in humanity.

fatih demir said...

Hey Murat,
What if.. he had a small Ataturk trinket hanging from a chain around his neck, and he took it out and kissed it in front of the world after winning his gold medal match? You guys might have blown a gasket from such an act as well, and you probably would have stayed silent about it too- what's there to gain from showing dis-taste for love of your country? Pffffft!(MA)
First thing's first... At the wrestling ring, you can't wear anything but a wrestling suit and wrestling shoes. No Ataturk trinket, no ring, no chain, and you can kiss no one. The only thing you can kiss in the ring is other athlete's ass. (Well, if you send a lil' kiss to the referee it can never hurt.)
That being said, let us look what is really going on here.
1968 Olympic gold medal winner Tommie Smith once said "If I win, I am American, not a black American. But if I did something bad, then they would say I am a Negro. We are black and we are proud of being black. Black America will understand what we did tonight.". Take out the word "Black" and replace it with "Muslim" and change the "American" with Turkish, Japanese, Iranian, Jamaican, etc... read it again!
When it comes to terror no one makes an exception... The whole world cheers together "Muslim Terrorist does this, does that,..." Why don't you make the same assumption and call them "Muslim Athletes". ..

Slightly off-topic but when you reference Ataturk in this way you dress a politician in religious garb, therefore institutionalizing Kemalizm as a new religion.

And Gulay : "Your other comments just show you to be a Neanderthal Turkish male who wants to tell a poor woman to get back in bed, cook dinner and have babies."

I ask my allovertheworld friends (both men and women) that "what they want from opposite sex" and pretty much they came up with same conclusion. They want lots of "sex", they each want the either person to cook or to take them out to eat, and if they love the opposite sex they want to "make babies". So either I am living in the Neanderthal Age or you are out of touch with the modern age and its inhabitants' desires!

Serdar Kaya said...

Dear Murat,

You of course should have the right to criticise and judge things as you wish. However, the argument I tried to make was not exactly about honoring the right to free speech or expression. I took those rights as a given, and in order to make my stance as clear as possible, I also stated that no one should deter others from expressing themselves regardless of the content of their messages - be it religious, non-religious or anti-religious. (Therefore it is not really necessary for you to ask what would happen if he held an Ataturk photo instead.)

The issue I was questioning was whether we should really perceive it as a problem when people involve themselves in religious expressions. (Moreover, in this case, I think this is the outcome of a feeling of thanks, and not even a social expression, but that's me anyway.)

Specifically in this case, I tried to question whether it is "appropriate" to expect him to do what he did in the locker room. "Appropriate" does not mean "legal," so I did not even think of this as a question of liberty at first - since this is the United States, and not Turkey. I somewhat know you personally, and thus already contend that you wouldn't want to live in a regime which gets wrestlers like above doing time, so I don't even question that.

Again, I do not have a "legal" context here. I, instead, have a "code of behavior" issue, and want to address a "mindset question" - in order to try and understand why certain Turkish people feel very disturbed at the sight of expressions that have to do with religion.


I feel terribly sorry about your loss. I hope you get yourself together quickly. And I don't know whether it is appropriate for me to say these things at this moment, but I'll just go ahead and expect you to forgive me if my timing is wrong:

Life is less about life, and more about death. In fact, the biggest truth in life is death. We are all like batteries that get consumed slowly every single moment, and eventually die out - if not somehow break down before we get to that point. In other words, we are slowly dying every single day, and each passing day gets us closer to the inevitable moment. What this means is that, given the nature of life, we are expected to die, not live. When we lose someone, it feels like "we are here," and the person in question "passed away from here." However, the truth is, that person just left a little earlier than us.

What I make from all this is that, although the pain that we endure when we lose a loved one is hardly describable, it has nothing to do with God taking someone away from us or from where s/he belongs. The whole thing is set to fade away. And whether we are reborn like a recharged battery at some place some day is a different issue.


I want to conclude with a question, if you don't mind.

It is necessary to question things. That's how we learn new things, and get to test what we think we already know. So I appreciate the fact that you like to question things. But when it comes to the glorification of Turkishness, I have difficulty in understanding your position.

First of all, you cannot read Turkish literature. Although your co-nationalists would see this as a disgrace, I of course don't go there, and it's none of my business. My point is, instead, that, not being able to read Turkish on a certain level, you can't have read the primary and secondary sources of Turkish history, you cannot quite follow the articles published in the Turkish media, and you are not familiar with the accounts of those who have recorded their impressions during the one-party era of Turkish politics.

This makes me want to ask you what "being Turkish" means to you, and how you define the term itself. Because I believe that if you questioned the God of the Turkish Republic half as much as you question God himself, you would start to encounter things that you haven't yet heard of. And trust me, the things you would get to learn would "really" surprise you.

But that, of course, is a decision that you have to make. And either way, I wish you well.

Murat Altinbasak said...

"First of all, you cannot read Turkish literature."

I think what you meant to say is: "You have not read a large amount of Turkish literature.".

Guilty as charged, but I can read and understand Turkish just fine. Very deep Turkish requires me to sometimes re-read things, especially with the backwards nature of run-on Turkish sentences, where the final word before the period is the one which holds the entire purpose of the sentence in it..

I am born and raised in the USA. That I can speak, read and write Turkish at this level is quite a miracle, if you ask me, considering that I have never in my life taken a class or instruction on how to do it. Easy, right?

I do not "glorify Turkishness", and my distaste for religion (be it IN or OUT of affairs of the state)should not be the 'marker' indicating where I stand.

And if being a bit light in religious beliefs gets me branded as an atheist and thusly branded as a raving nationalist, then I'm beginning to wonder who is doing the generalizing here?

I'm not going to debate g-d with you or anyone else. Isn't today the 1st day of Ramazan?
Allah tas yapar.

Anonymous said...

I think we should all (whether we believe in God or if we believe that we don't believe) commend Murat for the fact that as an Amerikan Turk, he is a great example of a Turk and Turkishness.

Having been born and raised in the U.S., and choosing to have a blog about Turkey and Turkish matters is a great attribute for the likes of Murat, and I don't mean that in a patronizing way, which is more than what I can say about some immigrant 'Turks' in the U.S., as well as some people who actually still live in Turkey.

So I believe Murat's Turkishness should not be based on his non ability to read Turkish newspapers. Believe it or not, we have other ways of finding out about events in Turkey without resorting to the sensationalist media that Turkey calls news.

And we also have an upper hand by simply living outside of the mess that Turkey is in, and able to look from outside in. So I don't agree with the notion that some people thinking that a Turk outside of Turkey cannot relate to the pain and suffering or nagging of Turks in Turkey.

Actually quite the opposite.

Thank God for people like Murat!


And happy Ramazan to all!!!

compir said...

sanirim burda en aci olan da bir yabancinin ya da oz be oz Amerikalinin boyle bir durumda ses cikarmayisi, ama bizim ulkemiz insanimizda tipki basortusunde oldugu gibi bu konuda da onyargilar bulunmasi. yazik, cok yazik...

Murat Altinbasak said...

No need to thank g-d, but I appreciate the good word you put in for me Metin. Figures you would be the one who says something nice.

Serdar Kaya said...


I am sorry if your Turkish is more fluent than I thought. It's just that, long ago, when commenting on Mustafa Akyol's book on the Kurdish question, you had said: "I am ashamed to admit that my Turkish comprehension is far too limited to enjoy it." In my opinion, if you cannot read that book, then it will be very difficult for you to understand any other serious Turkish source; but then again, it's just me.

Secondly, I did not express an intention to debate God. In fact, I did just the opposite by saying that "it has nothing to do with God..." So I have no idea why you said that you will not "debate God" with me or anyone else.


In all, I can't help but say that the arguments and counter-arguments of the commenters on this site do not follow one another. For example, on this site, a Kemalist zealot may accuse me of "want[ing] to tell a poor woman to get back in bed cook dinner and have babies" even when I haven't uttered a single word about women or implied any such stupid intentions on the issue. That person went as far as using the f word - for reasons which I believe has to do with her psychological state. Not that I'm not used to encountering such comments from people who adhere that archaic ideology, but I just don't let that kind of crap stain my site. But then again, it's just me, and you don't have to lose any sleep over it.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

Anonymous said...


"In my opinion, if you cannot read that book, then it will be very difficult for you to understand any other serious Turkish source; but then again, it's just me."

Please help me understand that you did not really mean how the above sentence was interpreted...

Do you mean to suggest that if one cannot comprehend Turkish, any English translation would not be as satisfactory or meaningful?

Do the 'reliable sources' about Turkey only exist within the context of Turkish?

Do the commentaries about Turkey and Turkishness written by sources outside Turkey and/or in any language other than Turkish have any merit, in your opinion?

I do agree with you about the God issue, but some archaic position about the language of the Turks as the only way to receive information regarding Turks and Turkey is nuts...

Am I wrong?

Serdar Kaya said...

"some archaic position about the language of the Turks as the only way to receive information regarding Turks and Turkey is nuts..."

I did not say or mean that.

What I'm saying is:

1. I am not talking about "receiving information." I'm talking about "gaining knowledge."

2. In order to make meaningful and cogent comments on Turkish Politics, one has to read the field's primary and secondary sources, or "literature." In fact, that is the case for all disciplines or subject areas. However, that does not always have to be in the original language of the region being observed - although it is almost always very highly preferred.

3. Most of such documents about the Turkish history and politics are not available in other languages.

4. Besides the literature, it is not possible to follow the stories and comments published at newspapers, magazines or journals published in the country either - since they are not continuously translated into other languages. Reading limited number of op-ed articles published in English or looking at Reuters photos just won't cut it. How well do you think those in Turkey who cannot read good English can understand U.S. politics? Don't you think that not only the publications available to them but also their comprehension would be significantly limited? If you want to see an example, take a look at the "Kemalicentric perceptions" of Professor Toktamis Ates, who spells Harvard with a 'w.' (I leave the level of non-professors to your imagination.)

5. As for translations, you may want to do some research about the criticisms the hermeneutical approach brings to the methodology of political science in regards to the sensitivities or perceptions of the political actors under review.

6. All of the above is, of course, based on the assumption that the person in question will in fact take the time and effort to read and understand the available sources. Because, many people who live in Turkey or understand Turkish perfectly still seem not to have such a concern. Don't get me wrong - people do not have an obligation to educate themselves on Turkish Politics. But they do not have an obligation to keep talking about things they are not well-informed about either. Although they are entitled to have their own opinions, that doesn't necessarily mean that their claims are not unfounded or that their assertions are not faulty.

7. I may not be following the comments in here, so you may want to send me a link if you post a response.

Murat Altinbasak said...

Serdar, I'm not a pundit, a maven, an expert, a member of intelligentsia, or even a college graduate. I speak my mind, and the filter is always turned off.
For you to come here and wrinkle your nose at my content and ill-informed opinions is a real kick in the crotch. How did a buffoon such as I make your Blog of the Month Club?
I've read some of the comments of those well-read Turks who follow your blog. Man alive! are they well trained in the art of leg-humping, or what..
Relax, this is Amerikan Turk talking, tongue firmly implanted in cheek. THis is not super serious "Dr. Prof. B.S. B.A. M.B.A. P.H.D. Turk" like those who you are used to associating with. I will now go and surf to find some good photos to post and make un-informed comments about them.

Finduk O. said...

Wow, this original post has really branched off into different topics completely.

I just want to give a quick account of what I saw on TV (namely on NTV which tries to be as unbiased as possible probably because it's an international news company owned by General Electric, but also on turkish-government run TRT)

What I saw on TRT specifically about this wrestler guy is that he cannot really speak Turkish. He's obviously learning, trying hard, but he is....Azeri, I think? In an interview after his medal win, he said, in real broken Turkish with his interpreter reminding him what the Turkish words were, something to the effect: I dedicate my gold medal to your country and your people. He was talking about Turkiye.

He is a Turkish citizen. When he was being interviewed and his translator was translating his interview into Turkish, I was listening to him and it didn't sound like Azeri. So I may be misquoting which country he was originally born and raised in.

But it is a fact that he is a naturalized Turkish citizen.

Here are some other facts: both TRT and NTV was questioning the government's preparation of the athletes going to the olympics. I didn't follow the olympic games at all. But I did follow this debate.

They were debating whether some of the athletes were selected solely because of their political (religious) views, and if the athletes were poorly prepared because much of the mindset was leaving things to god so whatever will happen would happen.

Newscasters were not furious, but they were perplexed, saying countries usually improve their athletic contingency every olympics, whereas Turkish olympics atheletes before the religious party in power were better prepared and won more medals, than the ones right now.

For the athletes that didn't win any medals, even though it was anticipated for them to win gold, it was said that those athletes were having trouble with their trainers and also with the government counterparts.

Lastly, there was a kid, I forgot which----boxing. He was an extremely young kid. Maybe the youngest on your country team. And in his interview when asked why he lost, he said it was because god just didn't mean for him to win, and that he would work hard for the next olympics and hope that god wants him to do better next time.

So take the above 3 facts into consideration when you are looking at the photo that Murat said was vexing.

I myself will submit no personal view about the topic, but I really wanted to let you guys know about some of the interviews that I watched with the olympians and with the government guy who headed of team turkiye. All those questions about atheletes not getting along with the trainers or the government not selecting, supporting or preparing the athletes properly went largely unanswered by the government dude.

Anyway, this was just a FYI :)

By the way, thanks Murat for providing this internet community and letting us speak our minds so freely :)

Anonymous said...

Didn't Emre do the same thing yesterday after he scored a goal converting a penalty?